L46,

From everything you have written it sounds like you are 100% behind recovery and haven't held a lot of anger over your WW's head. The very sweetness you seem to display and willingness to recover would be a DREAM to some WW's who want to recover but find their BH's burning rubber. If she wants recovery as much as you do, she would be in your lap kissing you every spare second of the day! So, I see the no kissing thing as a huge red flag. This red flag doesn't mean that she doesn't want to R but that she is probably still foggy and maybe withdrawing from OM. Now, many of the folks on the thread seem to be focusing on exposure to his supervisors for professional ethics reasons. The REAL reason to expose is to HELP your WW get over this creep!!! So, consider this, who can you expose to that will make it a sure thing that they will have NC? It is unlikely that exposing to his bosses will ensure NC as much as . . . . exposure to the OMW and any close family members. Just a thought. Most of the time, nuclear (complete) exposure is recommended so that the WS is prevented on all fronts from future contact with the OP. Perhaps in your case, exposure to OMW and your family added to shared passwords, cell phone records, VAR's, car GPS might give you the NC insurance you need. Also, you CANNOT go wrong with an NC letter. It is easy and effective.

I am a FWW and I can tell you that exposure to OMW was the best thing my H ever did. It was so dramatic that it ended contact immediately. Also, exposure helps her withdrawal problems be concluded more rapidly.

u233, exposing to the OM's workplace is very much a "REAL REASON" if it ensures that he will stopped from doing this again. That is the reason we are recommending this. If someone had done in the past, the OM might not have been free to pursue his wife in the first place. Allowing the OM to get away with this only makes it easier to destroy another marriage and leaves the nursing facility at legal risk. That is a veryt VALID reason to expose to the nursing home.

p.s. u223 is correct about exposing to the rest of the family. It will clear the fog and help keep your wife accountable.

I agree ML that it is a valid reason if it prevents the OM from doing it to someone else. I never thought of the "someone else" part. I am still learning everyday! I was trying to redirect L46's thoughts to make him think of exposure as something that would help his M in particular.

In any case, EXPOSE, EXPOSE, EXPOSE L46! As so many others have said, there is no downside to it. Believe me, your currently foggy wife will thank you with many kisses afterwards.

L46. (formally known as 146)

I'm so glad you moved your thread to this board. You now have some heavy hitters with much more experience and know-how in leading folks through some of the finer points of this discussion/plan.

Not to speak for Linus but I think he was just trying to step aside and let some vets get involved - he'll correct me if I'm wrong. Anyway, that's where I'm at. I don't have much more to add to the excellent words you've received today. I had a lengthy post ready for you but if I posted it now I would just be regurgitating many of the points made above by others. I know you have a lot of things to consider and exposure is NOT EASY, but we've all been through it and we all survived and are better for it. Many ws's ultimately thank their BS's after a time, when Recovery really starts. It's completely necessary.

I just have to reiterate my strong strong personal belief that this NURSE must be held accountable. I have much experience working in those types of facilities and there is absolutely no room for that type of behavior. He has the potential to destroy too many lives. And you have the potential to preemptively save them. Look at it as a responsibility to humanity.

And one thing that wasn't mentioned - what if this guy is already on probation for similar behavior? You'd be doing the facility a big favor by getting what they finally need to dump the loser. I also don't know that you have to get that personally involved; notifying the licensing board would be a cinch- just to get started. I know if I got a call from my licensing board about something I had done, after crapping my pants twice, I'd wake up and think long and hard about my future behavior.

Not to T/J, but why are going along with this?

Why not ask her why? Doesn't have to be an arguement, just ask. IMO, sharing these things is what starts the path back to intimacy. People go from Intimacy to conflict to withdrawal and they go back in the reverse direction.

I don't understand your question.

I spoke to the administrator. Not willing or interested in doing much about this. Seems to think it's not his issue. Was willing to avoid temporary work assignments to the other location, but I'm not too worried about that. As far as helping others, if there's no trend there's no interest on his part. If this was a regular hospital maybe there would be more concern but this place is not too impressive as far as who they have on staff. Our guy is probably a gem to them.

Good for you.
If it's a smaller or privately owned home, they may be "playing by their own rules" to some extent. However, they're still federally and state funded. Call the administrator back and let him know that he might not think it's a big deal but the Department of Public Health, state regulating boards and the Nursing and Allied Health Licensing board might have a different take on the situation. You have every right and responsibility to report this extremely unethical situation to the proper overseeing entities.
You did really good by voicing your concern. It WILL be discussed and they WILL be watching this monster POC. You made an impact, I can promise you that. A positive impact. Nice work.

The vets can help me here, but I think you just created a built-in monitoring tool: if ww and him are still communicating, he's sure to rip into her at some point if he gets dressed down by his boss (OP's and waywards are similar - they all do the same stupid things). So if her behavior changes in any noticable way (or if she's emotional enough to come to you with "why did you tell his boss!!!"), you'll have more insight into the nature of any continuing relationship.

Above - T/J means Thread Jack as in Hijacking the thread. They were having a bit of a side discussion. No big deal.

opt

That's okay. The question was directed to schtoop. I was just asking why he was going along (or seems to be going along) with his FWW just going through the motions.

The path back to intimacy requires Radical Honesty. Accepting her answer in a respectful way will let her know that she is safe
in being honest with you, now and in the future.

Ditto!
I hope that you write of letter of concern to the licensing board, and have a copy of that sent to that administrator you spoke to.

I think so too.

Here is another reason for the NC letter.
If OM gets slammed for his unethical behaviour, and wants to whine to your WW, he's not been informed by a written letter specifically addressing this very issue of NC.
I know that it can't guarantee NC, but it ensures that the issue has been made clear to both OP.
It's important that your WW understands NC, meaning that she will accept no contact made by OM, and will tell you if he tries to contact her.

I did ask her... she doesn't know why. I do think it will come in time. Other things have. She's allowed me to do things I never thought she would even when things were good. She's beginning to show affection and desire here and there. As long as this continues i think we are on the road to recovery.

We had a difficult talk last night after I relayed a comment my IC had made about how she didn't seem to feel so remorseful about the A - that most people in her situation would bend over backwards to make things right. This is related to the things I asked her to do which came across as selfish demands. She holds a lot of anger for how she's not been happy in the M for a long time. I told her she always seems to bring this up whenever she expressed being sorry for what she has done. I told her it felt like she thinks it was justified. Very upsetting for her. We talked it through, and I think it sunk in afterward.

Well today she tried giving me a peck on the lips. Not sure if it felt good for her, but it was a big step in my mind.

L,
We call it the rollercoaster so stay strapped in.
Are you Plan A'ing? Let us know how that's going for you. I can personally give you some pit-falls to look out for (I made plenty of mistakes I'd like to help you prevent if possible).

Are you avoiding LoveBusters? (not cutting back...eliminating)

Are you reading information on this site as well as in MB books?

You've accepted some responsibility for your situation; I can almost promise you that whatever behaviors you were referring to which you would like to change, even just to become a better man, those behaviors are probably addressed in some fashion or another from an MB perspective. Reading the articles will give you some of that perspective.

opt

I am avoiding LB but can't say I have eliminted them. Still a project. I seem to have had each category. Have been reading a ton here and some other sites adn listening to Mort Fertel. We're working on the EN forms, but not the LBs. I've read the Plan A sumamry and I'm not sure if I'm doing things completely right or not, but the A is over, I'm comfortable with that, adn I'm working in a thoughtful way to change my behaviors that got me here. Been doing that for 4 months now, but it wasn't much good until the A was over 6 weeks ago.

You can do it.

So, where are you having trouble? Lots and lots of folks here know all about Plan A. Their input will be invaluable if you can give some idea of where you're at with it. It helped me stay on track just to have it pounded into me.

Are you looking your best, smelling your best and being your best? You can't do anything to guarantee to get through the fog or break it up. But you can entice.

opt

OK, we have agreed to NC. The A had already ended. I asked her to scrub the house of any notes, or other reminders - mostly because I didn't want to come across anything. No problem there. Some other requests came across as selfish demands, and were rejected. She did agree to try the Marriage Fitness plan with me. It really resonates in my mind, but I haven't actually taken the steps to sign up. I sensed some lack of faith on her part due to the argument over my "demands" so I thought I would wait a bit. She had been listening to his CDs after noticing the effect they had on me. The demands set us back a little.

I am making myself more approachable with a nightly shower and shave. Taking the approach she deserves the best from me in everything I do. For a few months now I've been doing my part around the house, and more.

One thing you will all hammer me on is I occasionally travel for work, and every 6-8 weeks she will visit her father,sometimes alone and stay with her mother. This is my biggest danger zone and source of anxiety. She's there now for a few days. Yes, this enabled her. But I do trust her, I know, could be my downfall. Problem is I *have* been controlling in some ways. I don't want her to lose her time with her aging parents and can't always go along.

We are working on the EN questions. I'm awaiting her to finish hers so we can review them together. It's taking longer than I would like. Again, she's concerned about the guidance I'm getting, not knowing much about it. I may show her this site soon.

We've been spending a lot of time together, and probably too much about our relationship. I've had questions about the A, but mostly it's about both of our IC inputs.

I'm also probably doing too much telling her how I care for her, rather than just showing. I do both, she sees it, but sometimes complains she doesn't want to hear me say nice things I've not been saying "for years".

She says she is not going to contact, and OM will not. She tells me he is a player, but will occasionally tell me how he might have supported us getting back together but she knows I don't want to hear that and I've resisted the obvious retaliatory remarks.

I give her very nice massages every night. She really appreciates these. But I have to give her more space. I've been crowding her with my attention. I've also been listening and conversing better on whatever other subjects come up. We are getting along well and only argue occasionally but I am able to do so in a thoughtful way. She has been thoughtful toward me and recognizes what she did was wrong - although she always seems to add some reasoning. I told her this last night and you could see the anger. We were able to talk through it.

L46, don't say these kinds of things again, you are right in that it came across as a LB.
These sorts of statements imply that you know what she is feeling, (which you don't), and that she should be feeling and doing something else, (which you can't make her do).
I'm not bashing you, I said stuff like this too, to FWH. I don't think I really understood the negative impact that it had, until learning more MB was done and I was farther into R.
These conversations can lead to a ping pong game and cause your WW to withdraw more. She is still foggy and her thinking will be foggy for a long time.

There is a post from Mark1952 that I will hunt up and put it here. Some of it may not apply, but take from it what you can.
I think it's very good at explaining the defogging process.

Again, the justified remark, bad! These sort of lovebusters, you must stop. They will create more resentment and she will see the old husband from the old M. You want to show her the new husband wanting to rebuild a new M.
In time she will realize that there are no justifications for stepping outside of her M.

There are so many of us here at MB that understand your feelings of betrayal. Come here to the forum to vent. I would go for a run everyday, to think and vent to my surroundings, or scream in the house when I was alone. Point is, avoid venting at your WW.

Don't be so sure. I can say this from experience. The 'sunk in' may be very short lived.
See where you are in a year from now, not tomorrow, not next week or next month.
Recovery is hard.

Yes, a step in the right direction!