Originally Posted By: Mark1952

Fixing her thinking will be an exercise in futility. Right now she's a drunk who after a 30 day binge woke up and said "I'll never do THAT again." Not many stick to that commitment, made while hung over, kneeling in front of the toilet, with the kids asking "are you OK Mommy?"

Her thinking will begin to shift as she dries out. It will take over a year to be even close to turned 180 degrees.

Don't worry about convincing her that she was screwed up in her thinking, just refocus her toward what needs to happen in order to heal. If you lose sight of that you are still going to end up a statistic...

I know it sucks, BB, but now you have to help her get over OM. Becoming her "Daddy" isn't going to do it. Be her husband. Begin to DO the MB stuff and forget about teaching her what it's all about. She's still got one foot in Fantasyland, concentrate on getting her all the way back into reality by walking along side her instead of telling her where to step. Just take her hand and lead. She'll follow. Once things are not perched on the edge of the abyss you can test her thought process again to see what she has retained that is still faulty.

One of the difficulties of early recovery is that the BS who has been here all along has learned all the right things, not just to do but to think as well. We have become educated in what is the reality of an affair and understand that it isn't a real relationship, isn't something from God and was a purely selfish thing for our cheating spouse to do. But especially when an affair has been kept to the EA level and never been consummated physically, the waywards don't understand any of that stuff. All they understand is that right now they are hurting and though they want to stop the affair their pain is making them come up with all sorts of things that they won't think any more once they have dried out.

Think of it this way; when the BS got here, how many just did all the right things, exposed to everybody at once, put a plan into place immediately to meet the top 3 ENs of the wayward spouse as identified through logical analysis and never again had any AOs, DJs, SDs etc. The BS didn't become Dr Harley over night. Why do we always expect the WS to become Joyce the instant the affair is busted? (Rhetorical, no answer required)

BB, get a real NC letter if you can. The fog hasn't even begun to clear yet. She's still following the fog horn home. She will be in more control and be able to navigate once she can actually see where she is going.

Have you ever been in a heavy fog as the sun comes up? The sun will burn the fog off...eventually. But at first the bright sunlight hitting the fog is scattered so that all you can see is white and shades of gray. There is no detail to anything. You don't even know if you are facing toward or away from the sun since the light is scattered and nothing is clear enough to recognize until you are right on top of it.

That is where your wife is right now. She's been stumbling around in the fog, doesn't know where the path is any more, has no idea which way to go to find it and the lights just came on and now she's almost blind as well. Take her hand and lead her, giving her encouragement and comforting her. The fog will burn off shortly. If it doesn't it means the sun isn't really up and THAT relates to continued contact.

At the very time when we need to remember most, we BS's will so often forget that we have no control over what our spouse is thinking or doing. We look for an answer to the question, "How can I make her/him change the way she/he thinks/acts/believes?" The answer to that question doesn't change just because the affair is ending. You can't...

The question you need to ask is not what can I make her/him do but what can I do? What can I do to lead the recovery efforts? Not what can I do to fix her.

You can't trust her L46.
Is there a way to get your FIL closer to where you live so that WW would not have to spend nights away to visit him???

I have to get off the computer now so I don't have time to comment on this more, (I could, a lot) but I hope that someone else sees this,
and chimes in.

How's the NC letter coming along L46?

There is no way we can move her father. The best I can do is insert myself or our kids into the trips. The one this week is critical. If she can get through this weekend - which I am confident she will - then the next ones will be easier. She feels a very strong devotion to her family and I don't think she will sacrifice that time.

The NC letter... I brought up the idea, and we shared some thoughts on it. She feels it is unnecessary. She says the Om has no further interest, and I replied that can change. I don't feel particularly strongly about this one. She has given me her word, and putting it on paper doesn't seem to do much more for me. That relationship failed, and I'm not overly concerned about it.

We're not going to "hammer" you, but you need to understand this visiting business goes against MB principles. Namely: Extraordinary Precautions (which are not in place), WW earning back her trust, and I don't know but I think Recreational Companionship is critical right now (are you spending 15 hours/wk together?) - you're clearly not going to be together for 4 days.

The vets can help me out here too, but I think you're sending a dangerous message by trusting her so much right now. I know it seems like a LB not to, but it's not. Rather it's protecting the M.


Anyway you could show up there? How about hire a PI for the w/e?

nervous,
opt

I have a new question. I had snooped on my WW to get evidence to ask her about the A. We've been working on things and have been making progress. She opened up to me and told me things I did not know about. I knew only enough to start the conversation. She finished it.

So now she brings up the investigations I shared with her and says she has always been on a short leash, that I am unable to trust. She says now I have a reason of course. She says I have control issues (which I could accept), but I never snooped on her until I had a reason. What's up with this?

L46, can you tell us a little more about what's going on? How was the weekend? Was there any way for you to verify that your WW was where she said she was going to be the whole time? What was her demeanor when she returned? Were you in regular contact?

As I've said, I'm no professional here. I hope some with more experience get in on this discussion for you. From my experience and reading here..... something is up.

Usually when a Wayward Spouse accuses a BS of "control issues" it's not a good sign.

Don't reveal your sources again. You're teaching her where to be more secretive.

Plan A.

still nervous,
~opt

She is coming home tomorrow. I am comfortable this thing is over based on the things I've seen and how she is opening up to me about how she is hurting. I know she's been with her family the whole time. We have spoken often throughout.

There are a lot of issues with our history which are coming out now and we are working through them. I'll let you know how the homecoming goes. Thanks for sharing your concerns.

Before she gets there, You might want to review Dr. Harley's three stages of marriage. You can find them under basic concepts. Most guys HATE to read relationship stuff. Even a WW will be impressed by what you know if you are the exception. Puts lots of points in her love bank.

Larry

Thanks Larry. I had read this before but just now reading it again it sunk in better. I should not have tried to argue with her about this...

Not good. The door remains open to continue the A.

Well she is home safe. We were in regular contact during the trip but some of it was hard. I took some bait about how she feels i cannot trust in general, and always watched her activity, which is not right, and I should have not taken the argument. so I did some LBs and she is less happy to see me than when she left. I think this is the ups and downs as she is already warming up overnight. Back to Mr. nice guy and no arguments about the relationship.

I'm comfortable she maintained NC.

One of the conversations that took place over the w/e bothered me. It was about hiring a PI and snooping her. She asked why I didn't just asked her who she had been texting so many months ago. Now I did not know there was a secret cell phone, it came out when i questioned her about my suspicions. So the way she sees it, when I asked specific questions I got the answers. But I had asked her in several ways and several times over the prior 2-3 months if there was someone else, was she thinking of someone else, had there been someone else. Always the blank stare into space and a denial. I told her this was the reason I researched her activity. This led her to the above comments about me never trusting her.

46,


Great, that makes one of us.
But I�ll leave you alone on the multiple indications that the EA isn�t totally over (like her demeanor upon arriving home and her being defensive about you snooping. After all, she BETRAYED your trust and really needs to earn that back; if she�s not willing to accept that, then I think that is a problem).

However, I think you are right on to be recognizing and trying to eliminate LB�s for now. I think that�s crucial, and let�s face it: it is certainly something you can control (unlike your wife�s behavior, which you indicated in another thread is difficult to address due to her not wanting to be �manipulated or controlled�. By the way, my wife was the same way (same exact words)� as she went from one blatant EA to trying to develop another, to another, and possibly to another�.)

Another thing you can control is meeting her EN�s but you already know that. I would like you to think (if you�re not already � excuse me again for being presumptuous) however, of exactly what EN�s OM was meeting that left your WW tempted to go to him rather than you. I�ve read here that we BS�s can learn a lot from being honest with ourselves about where we�ve fallen short and set up the situation (not that it�s an excuse for waywards to behave the way they do).

I can tell you from my experience working in the environment that your ww found herself in that on MULTIPLE occasions I could have taken advantage of women�s vulnerability after having parents put in NH�s. �Are you okay, Ms. Jones?� I know this is tough for you. Are you taking some time for yourself?� (that pretty much opens the flood gates).

Get my point 46?

~opt

Absolutely Opt. Great advice, and I definitely get the point. I've looked very hard at the conditions and doing everything I can to change them.

Opt or others...

She says she is accepting the fact my trust has been betrayed and accepts that it will take time to rebuild. We talked about this while she was away. She expected I would be inquiring about how her time was spent. At one point she said it's ok this time but not next time. I raised this to her - that she was putting a deadline on my restoring trust in her. She agreed that was not fair.

But she did complain about all the calls and texts. Said the late night calls - I asked her to call me if she wanted. She did each night. I know she was not sleeping well there - not comfortable in her mother's home. But she seemed to be venting a little bit also - related to her feeling I was not a trusting person. We didn't really get anywhere with this discussion, and I think I should have just let her say whatever and not argue.

It does make me feel somewhat uneasy, but i can't control her actions or feelings. If she is willing and able to resume it she will. I agree I must focus on her EN and the ones most left out in the past. Trouble is it was pretty much all of them.

Yup, and part of her trusting you is knowing/feeling she's safe to say things like that and not have you react. [I definitely learned that one through all this, via MB]

Yeh, I know the feeling there too. I've had some success picking the most prominent/damaging (AO for me) and focusing on that. The others have started to fall off just with that major change in my awareness.
IB is easy - just preface everything you do with "how would you feel if...." (or if she's not around at the time "how would this action affect both of us/our marriage?"

One thing at a time, 46.

opt

Okay, this one has been bothering me all day.
1) I don't think she's in any position to be telling you what's okay about trusting her - not sure what lnaguage to use here, maybe a vet can come in and use proper MB terminology for me.
2) As I was trying to get at in an earlier post, I think you should become more invested in the situation - i.e. you should plan to be with her next time. Think of all the UA time you'll get, not to mention the LB deposits for going through this difficult situation in a supportive role for her (like OM apparently was).... BTW if whe resists the notion, she plans on seeing him, count on it. I speak from experience there.
3) the pessimist former wayward in me is saying "if she's planning a next time without a leash, something is up."

~opt

Opt,

I appreciate your concern... really. We are planning for the next visit for all for us to go, but more out of necessity than her feelings about it. To do chores...

I told her it was unreasonable for her to put a deadline on my trust, and she did accept that it was unfair for her to say that. I will definitely work to insert myself and try to be more helpful with her family situation. My problem is she is right now very protective of her personal space - due to the guideance of her IC - who does not know about the A. It's troubling for me, but the IC is helping her to stand up for herself. I have to find a way to support this effort because she needs it, while I build trust and show her I trust her.

It's a rather hellish mix of LBs for sure. Take one out, put another one in.

Her IC doesn't know about the A? Hope you aren't paying for that counseling.

Sorry, but I'm not convinced there has been NC. I think she is on her best behavior so that you will give her space, trust her, and she can continue the affair. She hasn't sent a NC letter. You really need to stick to the MB plan so that you don't experience a false recovery.

Okay, so it's necessity; you can still make it about feelings. I think it's crucial that you get emotionally involved with this situation in any way you can, Four-Six; side-by-side with WW so she feels your presence. You might start by apologizing for not doing so in the past.

ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

I can tell you all about a WW who wanted "personal space"


-trust but verify.