What do you think, Chris? You listened and felt heard. You didn't feel bored, tune him out, didn't try to solve his feelings or issues...and you asked about his plan, which is about him. And he asked about you, your day (your experience)...

how wonderful is that? Of course you're not going to feel great yet...you were surprised and you noticed immediately what you didn't feel...which is super! And did you notice your H chose to answer your free agency question after he stated his preference? You might not have because you were mentally rolling on the floor laughing at the time.



Those are gestures of respect, intimacy and love. Yes, tiny, small...and big when they are consistently missed.

Do you guys hold hands during these commutes?

You wow'd yourself...from your own choices. You liked the experience you had...keep it going. Your job is not to solve your H; your job is to love him.

Seems like you did just that, respectfully. Keep that up...because you like what you did, how you did it, and seems like you want to do it again.

LA

Oh man, LA, I missed the boat, huh? I like what you said much better

I didn't see you miss the boat...I saw you advising Chris to begin with enjoying conversation, being proactive, and that's really important.

That's the beginning point. Practicing listen and repeat when it's enjoyable is actually more difficult (for me) than when it's intense or difficult conversation.

lol

So it's a great start...and important...super important that you asked Chris to count herself INTO conversation topics. Her choices mattering as much as his...

No boat missed. You added another boat...or added to the ocean? I dunno.



LA

Honestly, I was laughing here as I wrote. At the time, I was more stunned than anything else.

Thanks for pointing out that he answered my Q first. That says a lot I think.




No. I am in the back with my leg elevated. Even if I was sitting near him, I would not be sure how he would react to me taking his hand at this time. Perhaps in the future. I am thinking positively.



Thank you, I do want to do it again and I will try to do it again.

As LA just pointed out - I agree (and I think you're saying) that it's important to count my preferences in the conversation topics. I don't want to "sacrifice" and then build more resentment.

At this time I am going to give him the opportunity to discuss the work situation because he needs to. He trusts me with it and he knows that I understand. In fact I may be the only person in his life who does. Since I am still his wife, I will provide that - fill that EN for him. For now.

I think it's important for me to know the stage my M & my DH is at - withdrawl. And, Dr. H's writings clearly state that the hill is especially steep for the spouse who hopes to lead the way...change the landscape in the M if the other spouse has reached that point. Another member said that when their spouse was in withdrawl, they felt frustrated and they felt like giving up sometimes too. So, I know my feelings are "normal."

I have to come to the place where I understand and accept that intially, I may feel like I am doing most (if not all) of the work. It's important not to get too wrapped up in that so I don't miss the changes in my DH too. Also, I will have to take these changes at face value since he is not communicating with me about wanting to take steps to save our M. In fact his words were the exact opposite. In other words, he could be becoming more kind to "keep the peac"e until we can divorce or he could be becoming more kind because he has changed his mind about getting a divorce. For now I can't know which is true & I don't have to know. (Very tough for me.) What I can do is: I can work on me.

I also have to accept that things may not turn out in the way I hope even after all of the hard work I am doing and the changes I am making. He may still may feel it's too late and he may still feel that he doesn't want our M. He may still file for a separation and then a divorce.

If I can start thinking in these healthy ways, I will be OK.

I will keep reading and posting here. I will read the books. I also have a friend who speaks as if she's been here @ MB writing some of the articles. I will talk with her and stop talking about this with other people who are not aware of MB principles and who seem to simply agree with my POV.

I just got finished reading Part One of the Love Busters book and OMG! What I posted on 3/11...those things I was feeling were from my "Taker". Also, according to what I am reading - as far as my DH yelling & cursing about the computer... He wasn't in Withdrawl at that time. AO doesn't happen in Withdrawl. He has also been doing something else: He has begun sharing feelings...telling me - "When you say abcde it's annoying." In the Withdrawl state that doesn't happen. He has also been approaching me with bits of trivia, interesting things he read, etc. I am resisting the urge to focus on his earlier admission that he was making small talk in the car to try to reduce tension so our son wouldn't notice something was wrong...and trying not to connect that with what's happening now. Trying, as LA suggested, to accept these changes in our way of interacting at face value. Trying to stay positive.

I have been working on my Dishonesty. I started off small, but last night I found myself tackling something a bit larger: The family $ / finances. I don't think I was totally successful. I shared here earlier that DH is temporarily doing the finances (paying the bills online & recording our spending to make sure we're not veering off the budget) because I was on pain killers. I asked about having that task returned to me & he said that he'd return it to me when my feet were better. I told him my feet have nothing to do with logging onto the computer and doing the bills, I'm not taking the pain killers anymore, & I would like to return to doing that task. But that was just part of it. I did not tell the 100% truth. The part that I left out was my fear. I have read / heard that a spouse who has threatened divorce may start funneling money away from the family pot. Sure, I can log into the accounts and see what's happening & I saw that right now, that isn't happening with us; however, right or wrong - it is a very real fear of mine at this point in time. I did not share that part and I am not sure if it was an appropriate thing to share or what would have been the appropriate way to share it. Since it involves talking about the status of our relationship & our M I held that part back because of how we left things at the end of the last discussion - I am supposed to wait for him to approach me about it.

DH also announced yesterday that we should take a trip to the beach in July as a family. He did this in front of our son. Since stated 2 weeks ago that he wants out, I felt that this was wrong, but I said nothing. (Another failure?) I am just not sure I can do that without knowing what the heck is going on here. Today is our son's B-Day party & it's going to be hard enough to make it through that with a smile on my face. Still, July is pretty far away & things may be different by then, but I'm sure several people here know exactly how I feel right now.

This is scary, disruptive, horrible...I am trying to get my emotions under control so I can have some sanity while I continue to work on myself.

Progress?

Last actually night ended pretty good. I was reading about the first section about Love Busters in the LB book and I came to the quiz portion. My DH agreed to verbally complete the quiz with me. Recall - he previously stated he did not want to talk about our Marriage and he wanted a divorce last month.

And, today was a good day.

Lots of eye contact, lots of "relating", and even a few physically loving gestures.

I'm going to keep educating myself and practicing what I learn.

Sounds like a major victory to me, Chris! Take them any way you can get them -- sometimes they are few and far between.

Congratulations!

Wow, Chris, thanks for sharing all this. A few years back, my H also told me he was going to leave, and LA asked me to consider looking not just at his words, but at his actions. He was still choosing to wake up in our house. And then when he decided not to leave anymore, he didn't tell me it had changed. So it was good that I got out of the habit on my own of living in that kind of fear, of him leaving then.

Very true NED. I believe LA also said something similar to me though, at the time, I was more focused on the idea that he may have felt he couldn't leave immediately because right now our home loan is up on the air and he believes that we cannot afford to maintain separate households. He even spoke of remaining in the house for "one or two years" during a separation (which I thought was nuts & I told him no way.) Now, I am more capable of taking in what LA said - kind of...Yes - he is choosing to stay: to wake up in our house, to take care of me physically and drive me to & from work and to all of my medical appointments, wash the clothes, help me get showered, give me my meds. Wow...typing all of that out and then seeing it is eye-opening. That's a lot to do for someone. That could be part of the frustration...this is the second time all of this has been placed on his shoulders - unfortunately they will not fix both feeet at the same time. He is also finishing up his MBA, and then there's the drama at work. So, when he said "I'm just not happy." I have to put that statement into perspective.

The good news is, each day I become more and more physically independent, I do what I can to help using my wheelchair (like consistently cooking and cleaning up the dishes) and I expect to be able to walk very soon. More good news, he will be finished with school in 2 weeks. So right there some of the pressure will be off.

In the meantime, I am still doing MB so I can be a better wife to him...


From my husband's actions I believe he has changed his mind as well but he hasn't said a word to me about it. Someone else here warned me that he probably wouldn't come to me and discuss the situation either.

Can you share how you coped with that?

Chris, I'm not sure what to say, I'll go back and read my journal. My first guess is that I felt part sad and part relieved. That I coped by talking with my friends here on the board, and I don't know if I mentioned I've been very active in Alanon, a 12 step group, for 4 years. I was also very active in my kids' activities and at my church, and with my extended family. It was a rough time, I was also reeling from his mom passing unexpectedly. But the support I had was second to none. LA and jayne were two of the folks here who helped me through that time.

Oh, Chris, what got us past that time was the UA and FC time. I planned activities, and followed through whether H participated or not.

We don't have UA right now, but we are talking again. It's during the commute, while watching TV, or for brief moments in between doing other things which surround our son (his b-day, his cub-scout activities, etc.) I guess this is what is called FC. But what if FC becomes a substiute or a way to avoid UA? (I should start a thread asking about this...) Speaking of that - My DH is really pouring himslef into this type of thing right now and making sure I feel "invited" to tag along. I am not sure if that's a good sign or not, and I am trying not to think about it, but...as some of you might know...it's very hard.

For example, at the b-day party one of the other moms kept going on and on about her ex whenever the kids were out of earshot. She (and one of the other moms) looked at my DH with such an admiration for how he was doing things for the party. It obviouslymade her think of her ex who she said has nothing to do with their kids and is even thousands in arrears on child support.

That made me feel bad...partly for her and partly because I think that everyone on the outside will say that something was wrong with me if we do get divorced. Looking @ him act at the party and at other events with our son, no one would ever guess that he was physically abusive and that he is verbally abusive. Why the heck do I care about what other people may think?

I still battle the lingering doubts about why I want to save our marriage in the first place.

These are not positive feelings.

Tried to work on honesty today. Baby steps.

I was feeling badly because it's almost 2 p.m. & I have not received a phone call today from my DH. I have had a few days like that recently because of the trouble we are having in our Marriage.

One of our rituals was to call each other several times during the work day. Of course that stopped almost entirely immediately after my DH announced he wanted a divorce. So, now that I think we're making progress, the bad timing on this is - My DH and all the folks towards the lower end of the totem pole in his office have been recently told no long personal calls @ work because of the new person he mentioned having the issues with. (Even though she begins her day with 45 minute calls to her spouse & daughter.)

Well, I picked up the phone and called him. I said that I was just calling to say a quick hello + to see how his day was going. He said he's doing ok but he has a meeting in a few minutes & was just getting prepped for it. So I said that I wouldn't keep him. I just wanted to see what he was up to. Then I said my my honesty statement at this point--> "We used to talk alot during the workday and it makes me sad that we don't anymore." He said "Well..You know what I go through daily here." I said "yep". Then he said "I'll call you back in the afternoon. I should be the only one in the office then." My statement of encouragement without pressure-->"It would be great if you are able to do that. I'll let you get back to work."

And then we said goodbyes.


This was a small exchange but I thought it was "progress." Practice with being honest about how something makes me feel and no accusations / harsh words via "You don't call me at work anymore."

Chris,

Good choice to call. You can also include honest appreciation...because he met your need for attention and conversation previously, though you may not have stated how happy you felt back then. See, you shared you're sad without it...does imply it made you happy back when.

Make sure you take every opportunity to state your genuine appreciation for his choices, too. Part of PORH, I believe.

My question for you is why didn't you get counseling for abuse when he asked you? Or the second time he asked? If you knew it was a big part of fighting for your marriage that you do this, would you?

LA

I did. But he doesn't see it that way.

Click here


Here's the most relevent portion:


He also doesn't recall me searching the Internet and making calls trying to find us a Marriage Counselor last year. It fell by the wayside because we got hung up on cost & logisitcs and life happened. Naturally, since he doesn't remember it, it did not happen. And he doesn't have to be responsible for searching for a Marriage Counselor and making it work either - it's just my responsibility. (Yes - the sarcasm was drippig off that last statement.)

Let's be clear: I was still being abused (verbally) and terrorized after he stopped PHYSICALLY abusing me And - he did not stop because he thought it was wrong. He stopped because he was shown I would call the police. Even when he said during that coversation linked above that he was "a monster" and he started the negative ball rolling in our relationship first by lying about his massive debts and then with physical and verbal abuse, HE DID NOT SAY HE WAS SORRY. He said that crap so matter of factly - "Yeah I may have started all this, but I told you to go fix yourself. You didn't and I am too tired to try now."

I can recall an incident where he yelled and cursed as loudly as he could directly into my ear. Got really close and in my face to do it. Jesu, my ear hurt like hell after that. I was absolutely TERRIFIED. It was over something so small...

Considering all of that isn't it amazing that I made any move to attempt counseling at all?

LA, look at me now. We need to stop this angle because it's bringing up negative memories. That's no good for me right now with what I am trying to do to save my marriage.

Or maybe I need to get it out. Who knows?

To answer the other part of your question: I am scheduled for 2 sessions already and I'll be scheduling more. The first appt is next week. My intention is to deal with my damage from being abused with individual counseling asap.

I'm confused.

Counseling for abuse is NOT MC...it was like the group you went to...and you were GREAT to say that group wasn't for you because you wanted your marriage...a HEALTHY marriage.

Not going to Alanon (how is a rage addict NOT like an alcoholic, really?), going to another group, or an IC back then was your choice...and now you're choosing differently.

I'm really glad you're going to do this. For you, to honor his thoughtful request, and for The Marriage.

For the years you did not after the first time you tried, you were saying (without saying) "you're the problem in our marriage, not me." Not what you intended, I believe...then again, when you trigger to his past abuse, you seem to really grab onto it as just that. He's the monster. After being here a couple of weeks (on MB), do you still believe he was/is a monster?

Just like you heard me saying you caused him, made him physically abuse you (which would also go for verbally abuse you after he stopped physically abusing you) in my first post to you.

See, if you had stuck to really getting the help you needed to RECOVER from his acts of abuse would have included learning skills to deal with triggers, healing wounds that he inflicted and the ones you did, in yourself...

What if he wanted you to get independent help in not continuing the abuse dance to help him to not act out his rage?

Had you done that, then when he yelled in your ear, you would have called the police again...you would have studied and learned abuse definitions...because that would have HELPED your H in his recovery.

And you didn't. Now you are. Tell him you are going to do what you really do before...that you are beginning to see your half, your power and responsibility in your own healing...and say that you'd like to develop a plan, over time, to heal the marriage, together.

Every time you stayed present for abuse, you harmed the marriage, too. And him. It's like watching an alcoholic drink, sit with him while he does, and point your finger at him as the only one doing harm. There is no measure to who does MORE harm...which seems as if you believe I am not understanding of your H's brutality over the years of your marriage...and I do understand. I do comprehend that you have PTSD, which you chose not to pursue getting help with for you, for the kids and the marriage...

Though all of you were worth it, every day.

I know that when you don't enforce your boundaries, you do harm to yourself, to others and your marriage. And it's soooo easy to do because you're focused on the other person not enforcing THEIR boundaries...and if only they would, then you wouldn't have to do your part.

That's what I get, Chris...and it will take concentrated healing of you, of owning your past choices, lots of forgiveness and discovering the true reasons why you did not...so that today, right now, your life can be free from abuse...because you will enforce your predetermined and progressive boundaries...without failing yourself.

And you may begin to hear your H very differently...hear him apologizing, asking for your help, offering his help, and maybe you can hear his pain, his acts of redemption, love and respect for you...and together, learn to thrive.

Every choice you make matters...knowing what abuse crosses your boundaries and legal boundaries--your responsibility. My responsibility. Each person is responsible for knowing and acting. Not reacting.

When I enforced my boundary of transparency during my FWH's withdrawal, I didn't know I was helping him...or the marriage. I was just holding myself to verifying the truth...something I could hold onto when I felt like flying apart.

Turns out, three years later, my DH told me how me checking his phone, right in front of him, his car, trash, etc...helped him to end his addiction to OW. That he knew he would be caught if he tried, so it strengthened him...and that wasn't my intent...was the result.

When we enforce healthy boundaries, everyone benefits in ways you can't see...if your H can rely on you to keep your word, not withstand his verbal abuse (by standing there)...work together on ending the abuse dance...each doing your part...then you're both working on the marriage, as well.

When you develop enforcing boundaries to a habit level, then you will see where you sharing honestly isn't dependent on him...he didn't make it so "for the first time I could speak openly"...because you have more power than that. And part of what you learn in abuse counseling is to NOT assign your power to the abuser...and helps you find out why you do, what your false payoff is in doing just that...so you begin to know yourself better and share yourself with your partner.

I don't understand your statement "He did not stop because it was wrong." He didn't want the consequences that comes with physically abusing his spouse. So he stopped. And then continued the verbal abuse.

I don't believe he replaced one with the other. I believe he was already verbally abusive before he stopped the physical. I believe he may have escalated the verbal after stopping the physical.

So you had great info from your H on what really got to him about having his request for you to get help from being abused turned down. I wonder if he felt heard, validated as to how important that was to him, that you really understood or not.

He said he saw himself as a monster...and he listed his monstrous actions. I heard you also call him that in your early posts and defend calling him that later. I push this issue because when you buy into his stuff, his definition, then you are not respecting yourself, him or the marriage. Because he stopped doing monster four years ago physically, and has yet to stop the verbal...and you know plainly that he stopped when you enforced.

He changed...and will continue to change. Don't discount his stopping because it doesn't match the why's you want...not yet. Stopping remains fact. You are both equals and equally powerful. He feels hopeless, wants to divorce, because as long as he's the monster in the marriage, it cannot be healthy, has no room for redemption, forgiveness or growth. His pleas to you to get help were very important. And now you're acting on them...tell him you now understand.

Understand that the actions...yelling in your ear so loud...isn't permitted over something small or big. Isn't permitted. See where your own thought patterns imply justification...as if you could really, at some level, deserve that behavior. That's in you. Not him. Not in his control.

Again--please do not hear me saying you caused him to abuse you, or do now...we are half of every relationship on this earth...that's in the design. What we do and don't do, say and don't say, matters as much as the other person in the relationship. It's inherent.

We sure can experience relationships very differently...our minds can bend, twist and distort in the name of protecting, when we are doing the opposite. Every abuser believes he/she is protecting himself when he abuses another. Isn't true...their experience is very real.

When you trigger to past abuse, own it. It's your trigger...and when you trigger you hate your H. Tell him that. Isn't real...your feelings follow your actions...and I learned to stop my triggers through ownership. When they happen, I have to catch the image/sound trigger within 10 seconds...and if I do, and then say "That's not what I want. That isn't happening right now" then I won't experience the emotions with it. If I delay, dwell (even for 20 more seconds), then I re-experience the event again, as if it were happening now and my feelings follow.

Your anger, fear, frustration and hatred isn't unreasonable...just know where it's really coming from. Because it takes you to the wall...as if you're sitting in the middle of the room, living your life...and from the trigger, going further with it (from the past), then you're thrown across the room to obliteration. That's the visual example of all or nothing. Happy or Miserable...with no in between.

And when I learned I was in control of that in myself...freedom finally was something I could live, breathe and understand. I'd blamed everyone else, made others the monsters, me the victim...

stop going to the wall. You can do this. Your healing is as important as your H's healing. Healing together is an incredible bond in marriage. You both affect the other in all your choices (which is the inherent intimacy in marriage)...get the help you've needed in the name of the marriage, right now.

LA

LA,

A few things:

+My husband's theory was that after I went to abuse counseling, we could go to Marriage Counseling together. Sounds like a good theory - provided that abuse actually stopped. It didn't.

+I tried the group and then I tried IC. I had a few IC sessions (about 5 or 6) when the need for the surgeries came. So, the IC temporarily stopped as we were just beginning to address my issues with the abuse. My IC starts again in exactly 2 weeks. It was the soonest I could get.

+Thoughtful request? My husband did not make a thoughtful request about abuse counseling or marriage counseling. He doesn't make thoughtful requests. Not yet. Not a character flaw - a lack of knowledge. I didn't know about the concept of thoughtful requests until about 2 weeks ago.

+I'm choosing to go to individual counseling for ME, not for him or my Marriage. I am learning MB for my Marriage.

+I never referred to my husband as a monster here or out loud - ever. It was the word he used. But I am sure I was using it in my mind to describe his abusive side.

+I fully comprehend that as long as he is the "monster" in the relationship it leaves no room for growth and mutual happiness. In fact, whether it's with him or another man - I need to heal so I can have peace and love. I was violated in the worst way when the person who is supposed to love and protect me became the person to be protected from. That's the reality and that's what I have to get past so I can be well. To answer your question - Do I still think he was / is a "monster"? - No AND yes. The AOs are scary....monstrous. The part of him that is willing to not protect me from the AOs is monstrous. The other parts are loving, dutiful, and reliable.


The next AO (and I know there will be one) I will state that it is not acceptible and physically remove myself from the situation. I realize exactly where I went wrong after I called the police. When he came back and said he was audi, I should have agreed with it and said - the door to our M is open IF you can guarantee that you will stop being abusive, attend more Anger Management training, and attend marriage couseling with me. I did not do that. Begging him to stay and then doing the eggshell walk on my tippie toes was my ignorant choice and I followed it up with more ignorant choices of not enforcing my boundaries after each AO and verbal abuse scenario. That's part fo the damage I caused. And now here I am.

I wish I had known about this place back then (and even earlier - before the marriage). There's a good chance that I would have insisted on attending an MB Weekend / completing an MB course or perhaps not even married him depending upon his response.

Hindsight is better than 20/20.


You said


I believe that as well.


I re-read what you wrote and I'll be re-reading it a few more times.
My sincerest thanks for your honesty & insight.

Tried POJA today.

During this morning's commute DH reminded me that our child would be staying @ a friend's house Saturday thru Sunday in 2 weeks. He also mentioned about having to replace some suits.

I tried to bundle these two circumstances into an opportunity to schedule some UA time. I suggested that we go shopping for the suits. (I recall, awhile ago - before the big "announcement" - he told me that he enjoyed it when we went shopping for suits together. He said he had been disappointed the last 2 times he had to go alone.) He said "That's fine. We're supposed to go to dinner anyway." It's not enthusiastic agreement and it's his standard response to many many things. It was his response two /three days ago when I suggested dinner because our child would be away.

I asked him if he already had something else in mind or something else planned. He said "no" but it would be his first weekend without school work in a long time. He was thinking about just sitting @ home.

So, I empathized with him: "It will be your first time without a school paper or a project due. I was exactly where you are a few years ago & I understand you may want to just chill out at the house. Let's not do the dinner or shopping if you don't want to... Let's not do anything unless both of us really want to." He got quiet.

Left it there and decided to check up on it in a few days.

How did I do?

Did you talk to your H about the promise of the beach trip in front of DS?

What did he say? I understand that you H does not seem to be consistant. I see you r concern in front of your son. It was also confusing to/for you.

I don't think I could live not knowing if he is "on" or "off". You know my H is on the fence, too. I simply could not live like that.