My pleasure, bea.

I don't think I felt this certain of what I was doing for a long time - over a year - after the final D Day 3 years ago. I bumbled along in misery for a long time. It would not be right for me to give an impression of clear purpose from the beginning.

I don't think the BS has to have a well worked-out reason for staying at first. It is enough that untangling a marriage is hard, and that you could not bear to hurt your children. I think indecision and perhaps even cowardice are good enough reasons for staying until you see how the land lies with your WH. If and when you see his commitment you can give your own, but only then. That does not mean you have to leave now.

Cheers, Larry!

Do you consider a person that just went on a single year-long coke binge a drug addict? If you are trolling for sex on AshleyMadison.com, chances are you are a sex addict, even if you've only been addicted a short time.

bea,

My husband has had several affairs. Can you recover a marriage after that?

Yes.

Is it easy?

No. It is he//.





You must, however, start with a man who is truly remorseful, gives you the full, complete, honest, and unabridged version in response to every single question you have.

If he is unwilling to give you that, you have NOTHING TO WORK WITH.

You cannot recover anything without recovering with a foundation based on the truth.


If that has to be forced with a polygraph, your husband is pond scum. I wouldn't go forward one single day with him.

That's me - you are the one who has to look into his eyes every day and wonder, "Is anything he says to me the truth?" or do I need a polygrapher to force it out of him?

I don't know that I could live with anyone like that in my house.


Plan B - because somehow in my book he sounds like there is still something he is seeking to cover up. You aren't going to get the truth until he KNOWS IN HIS HEART that you will dump his sorry a$$.


SB

Sugarcane,

My urge to flee from this nonsense is strong. Yet by nature I am a cautious person who has learned to stop and think before I act. My urges are in conflict with my nature, hence my dilemma. In the end, I know I have so much to lose if I don't try and so much to gain if I try and succeed.

Jim,

I'm still processing the possibilities. My H, due to his add and the resulting deficit in executive function, is prone doing all kinds of dumb things. I'm left wondering whether his various infidelities are the result of an addiction or a lack of executive control.

Schoolbus,

I have such a great respect for your wisdom and ability to see through the BS. At this point I've been through so many d-day's that I'm somewhat numb to the shock of the actual adultery. Now, as you pointed out, the destruction of the illusion of trust is the biggest problem. I'm back to where I was after the first d-day, which is not trusting him at all.

We've continued to talk about the issue. I've told him that by lying to me about what he's done, he's trapping me in this M by deception. I feel I have a right to know the truth of my life and to choose whether to stay with him, or not, based on that truth. I'm watching and waiting to see how this plays out.

He now claims to be ready and willing to take the polygraph. There was one further disclosure of an incident many years ago. He was out of town for a work seminar. A woman hit on him in a bar. He initially rebuffed her but ended up in conversation. Fortunately for all of us, a work colleague saw what he was doing and led him back to his room and put him to bed. The next day, according to H, he was mortified at what he had done and grateful to the colleague. This all cycles back to my issues with the friend who allowed H to pick up a woman and bring her to the friend's home. As I said to H tonight, that's what friends do. That's what I expected the other friend to do.

We have been married almost 17 years. Setting aside, briefly, his rampant infidelity over the course of 8 months, and assuming he is now being truthful (which may not be the case), his other acts of infidelity were chatting a woman up in a bar and the internet things. Alone, those things are unfortunate, but forgivable.

The rest of the infidelity occurred over an 8 month span of time. Does that make him a serial adulterer?

Off topic, but you know you've hit middle age when you have to look up the proper spelling of "forgivable" and "colleague." I was the runner up in my 6th grade spelling bee. What happened?!!

Bea

Bea


It is called use it or lose it.

I used to use IE on this forum and downloaded the google toolbar, which has a spell checker. I now use firefox, which also has one, but doesn't suggest the correct spelling like IE. After many, many posts and a ton of writing using Open Office, my spelling has come back to what it was in college.

Larry

H once again assures me that I know everything and is willing to take the polygraph. He could think I'm bluffing and he could be bluffing right back.

In Lovebusters, Dr. Harley describes four types of liars. My H is definitely in the "avoid trouble" category. His add doesn't help this tendency.

For all of us, when confronted with a difficult situation, the protective instinct kicks in and we are tempted to lie to avoid trouble. Most of us, in that moment, put the protective instinct to lie on hold long enough to to process the consequences of the lie and our judgment overrides our instinct. For someone with add, the executive in the brain never gets the chance to process the consequences and the lie comes spilling out. I've seen this replayed in our DD14 who has add too.

Is there any hope of H committing to radical honesty when lying is a lifetime pattern of behavior and a function of his add?

Is the only option to get him to stop the stupid behaviors which cause him to lie? Once again, the deficit in executive function makes that difficult, if not impossible.

Why is this so complicated?

Yes. I think that for years and years, it became somewhat of a habit for me. Maybe somewhat of a feeling of entitlement (why should I have to tell her I went to a bar after work? I deserve it). Maybe conflict avoidance (why tell her I went golfing this afternoon - she'll just use it against me to make me watch the kids so she can go shopping this weekend). And then sometimes it is just plain 'ole lying about an A.

I never thought of Honesty and Openness as an EN before. That is because I NEVER had to worry about that with my W. Never even any white lies with her. Actually, when you think about it, it is an easy EN to fill. It is actually harder to lie than to tell the truth.

So yes, he may see the light, but it has to be a conscious decision. I feel horrible about my past lies, even the silly ones that would have been easy to tell the truth. I have vowed to provide my W with the openness & honesty that she provides me. Obviously I like myself a whole lot better for it, too.

I think it is part of "getting it" on MB. It is not a question of whether he can get it, it is a question of whether he will.

[quote=ImStayingI think it is part of "getting it" on MB. It is not a question of whether he can get it, it is a question of whether he will. [/quote]

Your situation sounds so much like ours. I'm a very honest person and my H never had to worry about trusting me. Your statement about getting that honesty is an EN is very insightful. Thank you!

I obviously need to get the hang of the whole quote thing!

You accidentally deleted the right hand bracket of the "start quote" stuff.
It should look like
[ quote ]
or
[ quote=ImStaying ]

But without those spaces by the bracket.
Then when the quote ends it always looks like
[ /quote ]

But again without spaces.

You're doing great. We can tell what's quoted and what's not.

Thanks Turtlehead!

Does anyone have a good polygraph question to use to ferret out an emotional affair? I'm a lawyer and I spent years crafting questions for depositions, interrogatories, direct and cross examination, so it seems like it should be easier than it is. The physical stuff is easy to ask about.

I'd be curious to see different variations of polygraph questions for both emotional and physical affairs.

I haven't started drafting any of the questions yet. I know you are generally limited to three areas of questioning. I believe you start with a broad question and then narrower follow-ups are asked if there is any sign of deception.

For instance, I could propose the following:

Since date X, other than OW's #1,2,3,have you ever touched the "private parts" of another woman since date X, whether or not clothing was covering those parts?

Since date X, other than OW's #1,2,3,4,5, have you ever kissed another woman on the mouth.

If the answers are no and there is no sign of deception, I think you could safely rule out any other PA's and ONS's.

I believe the questions need to be clear and must focus on concrete actions. That's what makes it hard with the emotional affair part. My husband e-mails and talks to women every day in the course of his business. So I can't go that route.

Bea,
I just read your initial posting on this thread; and I am devastated for you. I remember the confidence with which you wrote about your recovery last summer, and your recent discovery wrenches my heart and mind for you. The really scary thing about your discovery is that it shows how easily we BS's can be lulled into belief because we so want the "happily ever after." I think I need a sedative and a box of tissues now. I wish I could offer you some good advice, but I have none. You will, however, be on my mind and in my prayers as you try to sort this out. {{{{{{{Bea}}}}}}}}

GY

"Have you ever had a relationship with a woman, that you did not want your wife to find out about?"

Could also slide 'romantic relationship' in.

More in that direction maybe???

Bea,

I am so sorry to hear about these latest events. Last fall, you posted the most helpful comments to me. Having suffered through nearly 2 years of trickle truth, I certainly understand what is happening to you now. Last month, it appeared as though the light bulb finally clicked on in my H and he commented that he finally understood why O&H was important and why trickle truth is called the death of a thousand cuts. I asked H why the change in perspective and he replied that he realized he was about to lose me (I had the attorney appt and told H I never wanted to see or speak with him again). Before H returned last fall after contacting OW, I gave him a list of things I needed in order to continue in the M. Talking to his physician about anti-depressants was on the list and he has been taking them since Dec. What a change in his outlook! The other thing that has seemed to make a difference for us was attendance at the Jan MB weekend. Are we recovered yet? No, but I do think we are on the right path.

Prayers for you and your H.

AM

Vittoria,

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll have to give that some thought. From what I've read, the questions can't focus on thoughts or feelings. I could certainly ask about attempts to conceal contact he was having with women. The problem is his work e-mail and phone. I didn't have access to his work e-mail until after d-day #1 and much of his communicating is done by e-mail. Knowing my lack of access, he wouldn't believe he was concealing anything inappropriate that went on via e-mail.

This is going to be tough.

Bea

GY and AM,

Thanks for your sympathy and words of encouragement. I thought of both of you as soon as it happened. What is most devastating about this is how successful he was last April in leading me to believe that he had told me everything. He told me how relieved he was a number of times. After that, he openly talked about his A and was almost always the one who brought it up. He's normally not a very good liar, but this was an Oscar-worthy performance.

Last night was horrible for me. I asked him to read the dishonesty chapter in the LB book. I thought he was ready to get a better perspective on honesty and why it's so important. I was ready to share ways in which I had been less than honest with him in the past and how that had so negatively impacted our M. Rather than have the productive conversation I was hoping for, he just got angry. He jumped to the conclusion that I'm trying to pull every bad thought he's ever had out of his head. He left me feeling that he would never be able to embrace honesty the way he needs to.

Then the conversation once again turned to whether or not the incident on the beach was "sex" and "adultery" or not. Amazingly, he had convinced himself that it was neither. This made me realize that the first person he lies to is himself.

At this point I went to bed. By the morning I was such a physical and emotional wreck that it was excruciating. We talked for a few minutes after the kids went to school and I broke down. He had to leave, but we've had several conversations in the meantime.

Things are marginally better, but as I told him, I can't rely on anything he says. Only his actions will matter. I'm hoping during counseling Steve can give me an objective take on whether he's really ready to embrace honesty or whether he's just going through the motions to keep me from leaving him.

AM, I'm glad to hear the anti-d's are helping. I've found over the years that I can't do any work on the M when H is depressed. I just have to hide in my emotional shell and wait for it to pass.

I've found with H that if he is less than religious about taking his meds, it can have a huge impact in only a day or two. My H has never been faithful about it, and I've learned to look for the signs and get him back on track as quickly as possible. There's also a strong tendency to start feeling better and then convince yourself you don't need the meds anymore. Because H has such a strong family history of depression, there's no way he can do without meds (absent a lobotomy which I'm tempted to provide). If your H doesn't have a family history he may be able to wean himself off someday, but it has to be done slowly and carefully.

I had a long talk with my SIL today who is very supportive. I'm feeling a little better but I'm very wary. The way H is speaking still makes me think he's hiding something. It may not be A related, but it's something he's afraid to tell me. I wish I could have Schoolbus hear to listen to him. She'd know right away.

Bea