With MB, we were able to find some fun UA and stuff we could do with the kids, too. But I'm not actually looking to fix it anymore, I have a huge huge sense of relief planning to separate at the end of the month. So I can totally relate to what you said about subtly pushing your X out the door. Reading your story, I had a morbid curiosity if the age was a factor for us, too.

Ears:

Age is always a factor. He/she is way older. We are the same age and he/she is so immature. The reality is that age plays no factor unless you want it to. It boils down to expectations, and when we have expectations that exceed our partner's ability to delivery, we find all sorts of reason why that is.

In my case, we had a major disagreement. She wanted another kid. I felt (and she did too) that there was too much risk that we would have another Hirschsprungs baby. I also felt we had way more on our plate with the other three to the point where we didn't need any child. She works in mother/baby as an RN and now NICU, so the new baby smell got her.

She also felt her market value was declining and she really wanted to get with someone more her own age. Well, who could last longer and be there for her in her own old age. She fessed up that one when I challenged her on it. That is one area where a generational gap makes sense. Also, I didn't have all the energy to do all the things I had to do daily and still have some left for the recreational activities she wanted.

The latter one hasn't worked out for her except in the courting days when she was trying to hook New Guy. They are both too exhausted to do much. Heck, he can't even get done what I got done.

For me, I felt that she stuffed all her crap behind the wall and it was leaking. See thread. She isn't and wasn't a bad person. Just someone who made really stinker decisions. I forgave her for the affair. But it weighed on my mind... too much. I concluded that she had reasons she wasn't telling and so did I.

I decided to set her free to see what would happen. Heck isn't that what we're supposed to do? I mean when someone else's happiness means as much as our own, we gotta do what we gotta do.

Now I see what is bothering you. I regret that the two of you didn't make it. What do you think the reasons, the true reasons, are?

Larry

Lady comes to work one day in a super, super mood. Her friend asked why she was so sparkley that morning.

Lady says, "Saw my Ex yesterday with that tramp he had the affair with."

Friend asks, "Why would that put you in such a good mood?"

Lady replies, "She now weighs 50 pounds more than me and they obviously don't have the money to buy size 18 clothes, so she is stuffed into her old stuff." giggle.

I saw New Guy a couple of days ago. He has gained 50 pounds, easy.

Larry

Sugarcane

If you are still reading my thread.


I don't know when or if they got married. So I all him New Guy for exactly the reason you detail. She started back to work here using my last name and the same with her bank account. She eventually changed her name on the bank account and I don't know about her work. This was long after they possibly should have gotten married, so I am suspicious.

Besides, and I really hate this (sarcasm alert), he is known around this town as "That guy." As in, "Why the heck did she divorce you and marry 'that guy?'" Or, "'that guy' was by the store today and he sure was rude, what's his problem?" I don't speak ill of 'that guy,' but if someone say stuff to me, I hear them and say back, "No clue!." This town is like 1,400 pop.

Did you ever find that Harley reference? And no, it didn't bother me at all to get up early and vent. I still thank you for dinging me into doing it. It was long coming and I needed to do what I did.

Larry

I am still reading here, Larry, and thanks for not being annoyed at my interventions!

I'm off to visit an art gallery in the London drizzle with my H today. I'll be back later and look for that reference. I don't think I saw it in a book; it's on this site in a Q&A. It's just a sentence saying "no old boyfriends" - but I think it would cover husbands, too!

Since this man's rights as a stepfather are important, why don't you look up the marriage in the public records, if you don't want to ask X directly? If he is saying what goes on with the kids at school, it might be good to know his limits.

I think the reason is that I stopped wanting bad enough. We didn't yet have a true MB marriage, but we had enough parts in place, like UA and FC, and were back-in-love enough that I think one day we would have gotten to the MB weekend and really get to put it all in place, replace the IB for once and for all. But I wasn't back-in-love enough that I was enthusiastic to wait through the in-the-meantime anymore. I'm following the plan in the When to Call it Quits, I got my ducks in a row, am doing a short term Plan A, and then plan to go dark when we separate. I don't know have a lot of hope it will save us, but I am at peace with that. Thanks for letting me share that here.

SC

I done toll you and toll you, I am grateful, so stop it already


London drizzle. I have been to England many, many times. I love the old country. Oddly enough, I have never had any allergies whilst visiting. My parents on my mother's side were supposedly from up around Leeds, which means they could be Scot or English, or more likely, very mixed.

I have never forgotten my first trip. I was met by a guy from Cambridge. Driving through that city, I exclaimed at the age of one old church which was founded in the 1400 hundreds or whatever. The guy I was with said, "Oh, that's nuthin, why in me own town, we have a Church that was started up in 974." I pulled his leg back by asking if his wife, Rita, was the inspiration for a Beetle's song.

Larry

Guess I have to start calling the new you, NED or something.

I understand completely. You get tired of waiting for the pot of gold. In some ways I think Harley paints too rosy a picture of the possibilities. On the other hand, without that goal, why would anyone try? The WS, meantime, still has a ton of stuff either locked up in a cell somewhere if male, or behind the wall if female. It sucks to be them.

This is my thread, so anyone can say anything they want on any subject at any time. Full open thread with no limitations. No thanks needed.

Larry

Larry, I'm annoyed that I cannot find that reference. I have read every Q&A this evening, and all the columns (I think. There are links hidden behind links; there is so much stuff here!)

I know that the context was Dr Harley's saying that old lovers should not be kept on as friends. He was describing how easy it is for us to let others to meet our emotional needs, especially if there is a gap in the marriage.

Dr Harley was not describing what we should do with regard to our X's marriages; he was talking about protecting our own. However, the logic of his argument is that your X, who once loved you even though the marriage failed, could maintain feelings for you, or could have these rekindled. I posted because it seemed that you felt you had a right to be close to her, because of your son's needs. I was suggesting that you separate your joint parenting from your friendship with her. You seemed in danger to me of bringing about conflict between her and her H, and that is not right.

Even before you started this thread, I noted the way you talked about your X as if you were still looking after her. I also read this (3 March 2010):


It was not just the "emotion" statement that struck me, but also your saying that it would stand the test of time. At the time I read that, I was puzzled because you seem to have decided to divorce. It did not seem to have been forced upon you by her walking away. You were never very clear about your reasons for divorce until this thread developed. You obviously did not want to go into painful details about the break up, but nonetheless, you seem to have decided it. Why, then, were you hanging on to her?

It sounded almost as if you might remarry each other one day, because your mutual feelings had remained despite the divorce. We have seen a few cases here where the couple builds a new relationship and remarries after divorce. That is a good thing if properly done, especially if children are involved.

I'm telling you all this background to explain my surprise when I read the first post here and saw - as you said then - that your X had been, during this whole time, remarried! I had never realised this, because of the closeness that you described still existing between you, and the absolute absence of an H from your posts! A remarriage is hardly a minor detail if you are talking about your current relationship with your X!

So that first post on this thread surprised me, and then your second one did so even more. You said

You seemed to be saying that her H had no right to be jealous of the man she had been married to for 10 years, but I think he does. I think every spouse has a right to be jealous of Xs. If any degree of friendship between Xs makes the spouse unhappy, that friendship should be ended. We can suggest that a X becomes a friend of the couple, but really, if the spouse does not want that, then the friendship should end. Normally we on these boards would have no trouble advising this.

However, because of the way you wrote this story, you made it seem as if the new H - "New Guy" (which I still maintain is not respectful if she is married) - was actually intervening in YOUR marriage! One of the posters here assumed he was OM, and therefore had no right to be with your X at all. I think that came about because of the way you wrote, as if he was an interloper. But he isn't; you are divorced, and he is not OM.

This man might be a threat to your wife, but the most you should do if you fear for her safety is advise her to call the police, and perhaps offer to take the children if she needs to get away from him. You should certainly speak to the authorities if you think any of the 3 are at risk, and you should think about getting more legal custody - perhaps full custody - if you think your son is not thriving in that home. However, you should keep a clear barrier in your mind between co-parenting your son and looking after your X. She is married to this unsavoury-sounding man now, and she (not the children) must live with the consequences of that poor choice. Even if she is not married, she is having a baby with him, and your friendship should not cause any conflict that might bring about an end to that relationship. Remember, once you divorced her you gave her the right to choose a new man. You do not maintain the right to vet him as a partner.

She is not your wife to protect any more. Your son IS your son to protect for ever, and I am in no way suggesting that you leave him to grow more unhappy. See what you can do to get more time with him.

SC

You spent a lot of time working on that. As a poster of looooong threads, I know. And I can tell you spent mucho brain power and thought with your explanation.

Let me chew on it in the fullness of time. Most of what you say is both valid and timely. Somewhere in the jumbled up mess of words, I think in a post down the thread, I gave my honest version of why the divorce. She was unhappy for various reasons that included the affair and thus laden with guilt, I let her go, no, I eased her out the door.

I will get back to this tomorrow.

Larry

Larry, I had exactly the same thoughts as SC regarding what I saw as your possible involvement in your ex's new marriage. I also surmised, perhaps incorrectly, that your ex was talking to you about personal things within her marriage - this is not good.

I was going to write a post very similar to the one that she has written.

But then I saw your post about your son's issues in school, and that complicated my thoughts. His issues IMHO necessitate more communication between you and your ex than would otherwise be the case in a divorce with a healthier child. And your son has not yet hit puberty, which may well exacerbate the ADHD.

If I were you, I would tread very carefully here, and continue to examine your motives. I'm getting a bit of a proprietary feeling from you regarding your ex, and, as SC says, you let her go, and she has gone to a new marriage. You don't want to be the interloper in your ex's marriage. But you do want to make sure that your son is well cared for.

Not an easy road, but you're an intelligent guy, you will be able to figure it out.

pk

PK, how did you get your name back?

SC and PK

Yep, it is a minefield. And I have problems dealing with my emotions. And yes, I do have proprietary feelings that are totally inappropriate and I know it with the intellectual side of my mind. My emotional side fights back.

I struggle and the problems that my son has, which I think I listed and could add a few, are not helped at all by both what is going on with X and New Husband (is that better?) and my son's own issues, which he would have anyway.

Let me explain how I became aware that my X had problems is when I was talking to her about her work schedule. Out of the blue, she asked, "If something happens, can I count on you to help me with the kids?" I was so taken aback that all I could say was, "Sure." She said bye and hung up immediately before I had a chance to ask what the devil was going on.

So I stewed on that for a few days, talked to my buddy in East Texas, the ex-shrink and even had a melt down which sent me to MHMR with my tail between my legs. I refused to call her and ask WTF. I was tired of a series of remarks from her when I talked to her about my son. They were usually one liners like, "My (new husband) can do anything." My bad side vented a few remarks in return. I am not proud of those remarks. For example, their yard is a total mess. He was not working at the time. I said, "If I had ever wrecked our yard like he has done, you would have bought an axe handle from the hardware store, beat me to death with it and then buried me next to Mary Jane (Grandmother) and left the axe handle so she could continue the job." Her reply was, "Yes I would have." End of conversation.

I finally resorted to text message and emails, and not answering the phone. I felt then that any conversation that wasn't limited to my son was inappropriate. Why she felt she had to justify her new marriage was beyond me. Why I felt I had to add my own catty remarks I understood and took steps to remove the temptation.

She talks to my buddy in East Texas from time to time. He told her she better tell me what was going on because I was worried sick. So she called and detailed what was going on. That eased my mind considerably. At least I knew she had a rescue plan in place should things go to that level.

This is a serious hair ball. New Husband has shown every sign of trying to run me off and take over my role as my son's dad. I refuse to let that happen. By posting here and getting feedback from SC, PK and others, I am doing better, really!

After all, this is what the forums are all about, right?

And PK, no matter how smart you are, it is hard to be wise when the shells are landing all around you. I will do better.

Thank you

Larry

Larry, you ARE intelligent and you have not yet tried what Pep suggested:


I think the value of this post is not just its specific suggestions, but it overall recommendation that you disarm H. I think you should vigorously try that, and then you might not have to get heavy with the legal stuff. Legal fights almost always escalate into all-out wars, and I'm not sure the children would be winners from that.

Can you think of a way to get more care of your son (and perhaps the others) in the guise of offering more help at a difficult time?

X is pregnant, which for some women is hard, and she has 3 other kids with varying degrees of need. I should think that she and H might value help with the 3 children to give her and the couple more time to cope with the pregnancy and new baby.

How many nights do you have your son now? Could you increase that? Could you include the other two at weekends? It is very obvious that you are good for your son, and he thrives under your care, and it sounds as if the older too do as well. Can you bring about a situation where you are providing more care, and H feels grateful, rather than threatened?

That means you probably have to talk to him. There is no need to take an antagonistic position towards him from the off!

SC

I explained to Pep, I think, that I have been there and done that.

Didn't work.

By profession, I am a jack of all trades, but mostly a salesman. In my past I have also been called on as an expert witness both here in the States and overseas. I was once, 40 years ago, trained as a mediator in railroad/union disputes.

I like negotiation. I am more than willing to disarm or whatever it takes to negotiate instead of fight a war.

The New Husband has a complaint on a certain forum based on his track record running a repair shop in his old home town and apparently his overall record there. As long as it has been since he was involved (Aug 2009), I still got an alert yesterday noting that someone had posted to against him on that thread.

It said:


I have no idea who posted that or what their beef was or is. New Husband is a flaming jerk and I just can't get through to him and I have given up.

I got a call from X late today. She wanted to get son to her place and tried to talk about something else. I cut her off by saying, "Let's keep this on son, please." She said ok and I said I would have him there in about 20 minutes.

I am trying, I really, really am trying.

Larry

Ok, I am using this as my personal journal about the most recent events of a positive (not much) and negative aspects of divorce in terms of me (not much) and my son (mostly).

My buddy the child shrink calls and tells me my X is really mad at me over something that my son says to her. Apparently New Husband got seriously bent out of shape over it and made her call, somebody. She didn't call me, which is probably a good thing.

Buddy turned it around on her by mentioning that she had called him and said stuff within the range of kid hearing. Kids hear everything BTW. And they do their own twist on it.

Anyway, son marches up to his mom and says, "You need to divorce [new husband] because he is a bad father."

I started laughing and told buddy that I knew exactly where son got that. Conversation with son in car driving him to X late this afternoon:

Son: NH (new husband) yells at me.
Me: Why does he yell? Sometimes I yell too, but I try not to.
Son: Yes I know. You yell at [oldest boy]
Me: Who told you that? I raise my voice with [oldest boy] sometimes, sure just like I do with you but I love you and I love [oldest boy]
Son: Mama said.
Me: Well son, I try not to yell at anyone and I bet that NH does the same thing. So don't worry about it when it happens, ok?
son: ok daddy.



People forget that kids hear things, process things and even at the age of 7, can come to their own conclusions. And obviously son got the idea that yelling at a kid meant divorce. From the conversation, it was no mystery where he got it. And he is too young to understand that the personal narrative of his mother is going to change depending on whether she is dealing with something I did versus NH doing exactly the same thing.

Ahhh, the joys of co-parenting after divorce. What do they say, marriage is for love, divorce is for ever, forever, forever. . .

Larry

I answered you on the other thread in Recovery.


So true. Divorce reverberates through the years, but at least your divorce was amicable. That makes a difference, I am convinced. I'm still feeling the (by now) mild after effects of my parents' supremely UN-amicable divorce. I learned as an adult not to let them make their problems my own. I invite them both to events - if my mother is troubled by my father's presence, tough darts. And lo and behold things improved. They still snipe about each other, but it's in one ear and out the other for me.


I believe you. I have always gotten a strong feeling of innate decency from your posts.

pk

PK

Sometimes, it doesn't happen very often, somebody says something to someone that makes a real difference.


I see myself that way. I try to be that way. Most of the time, I think I succeed. It is who I am and that someone else sees it, well, words aren't in me right now to say how that makes me feel. But it is a very good thing. I am pathetically grateful.

Thank you.

Larry

I find that most of pk's posts do that to me.

She's the (wo)man.

PS: can I say "you da man"?? Does it sound okay with my English accent?

Uh, no, but it might in the East End, maybe. ..