Oh, good grief! Put the hammer and nails away and give it up! You're the only one trying to build something here, and nobody else is going to help.

tl

Road, give it a rest! Gee. They were married for 29 years. I hardly think that would qualify LLL as a renter. What is your problem?

You know LLL,

You sound like someone concerned for another human being who has the objectivity to see the details of his situation.
I have been both ways in my relationship with second wife. Objective but having enough self-respect to step away and the other hell we put ourselves though...the one where our relationship was the only thing that was important in life.
Funny thing is it occurred backwards. The objective part came when after a couple years of watching her live in a mindset that promoted her drinking in the first part of the marriage I was able to leave for a couple years. It wasn't untill I came back and through myself wholeheartedly into the marriage and eventually through the cycle of mistakes and personal failures that I eventually thought that that was all I had in life. Because I sacrificed so many good things in life on the alter of a marriage that God never intended for me. KWIM?

Road, It is possible for two ppl to love each other without losing who they are inside. We do it for our Kids when they don't know any better and we also love the sick, whom our mates sometimes become, and take care of them even though they hurt us.
Hence the institutions like jail and mental hospitals. What we can't choose is for them to love us. Thats why we are here. To help those who have wrapped all thier being and self-respect into the love someone else gave them and then it was taken away.

Like life teaches us and MB is affirming us in, We need to love ourselves and be happy with ourselves first before we can love others. Thats all we can control. I am glad that LLL already has that part. I don't think that she stopped loving her WH and lets give her credit for not drowning like many ppl do as she is continuing to stay in the boat.

The more people keep things separate the increase in the odds the relationship will not last.

Why don't you not see this?

Maybe LLL had no intention of being a renter, though the degree of separation in this marriage points out that her WH was a renter. He married LLL because he was only willing to marry someone that would allow the level of separation that he required.

This is not bashing LLL. Pointing out the risks of maintaining levels of separation in a marriage and the possible outcomes.

I've watched this thread for a while with interest.


There is no way that you could know this, unless you have been magically granted access to LLL's WH's mind. You are making an assumption and proceeding as though that assumption was fact.

Why do *you* not see that?

And while you may not think that you are bashing LLL, you are, IMHO, pouring salt in the wounds of a BS who has acted in a very level-headed manner in a terrible situation. You are basically telling her that her marriage was a sham, and that it was bound to go bad, simply because it did not conform to your expectations (children, finances, etc.)

LLL, I think that your H is really going to regret his behavior one day, but by that time you will be recovered and long since moved on in your life. Best wishes to you.

pk

Around these parts we call that a disrespectful judgement.

God's Blessings,

Say

Well all I can say is that LLL had a good marriage based on what MB principles are supposed to foster.

Take care of yourself first and live in the real world...

Don't use money as an excuse for manipulation or disreguarding the emotional issues between you and your spouse.

Spend quality time with your spouse and communicate honestly with them about all important issues including your own fears and desires. wait ESPECIIALLY your own fears and desires. Comfort and support your spouse thru hard times, sickness and emotional issues that are attached to that are critical.

If your point is that WH had a renters attitude I agree whole-heartedly. As soon as it was gonna be hard for him when LLL Mom got sick and some pie-in-the-sky Chippie gave him a way out. He took it. He should have been by LLL side reguardless of how much that made him face his own mortality instead of running away, from himself and his responsibilty to his wife.

I see it that LLL has done the best thing for WH by not crumbling and falling apart. She in fact has refused to blame herself for his actions. All of us should know by now that most BS fall into that when affairs hammer them and they almost believe that the crap like "Its your fault I cheated" and "I just don't love you anymore because you..."..and LLL didn't buy it. Thank God..


Road I understand the renters and buyers mindset very well. When you are in it for life you will do everything reasonable to build your marriage and strengthen your relationship. First we have to be real with ourselves. If we are holding back problems that we should be addressing from ourselves and our mates we set ourselves up for failures and mistakes. Thats a fact whether we spend to much money and cause a problem or it escalates into a EA or affair when we ignore our emotional health.

Its allways upsetting to me when I see a couple who had a chance to have it all split up esspecially when its two people who have made such good decisions in thier professional life.

But that only proves that money can't buy happiness and that marriage is an agreement between two ppl to care for each other.

WH might have been a buyer at one time but if you are successful and living in this world you have females trying to sell you new digs every day. Its up to the guy to realize whats really going on and keep his own mind. Too bad WH bought some swampland in Florida when she was selling him the eifel tower. <sp>

Ask WH if the view in the everglades is nice this time of year LLL. Warn him about the crocs too..

LLL, I wish you well with your future, which seems to be settling into a neatly independent shape. But I�d also like you to think about one thing.

What have you learned about yourself from this nightmare?

I detect from you a hostile response to any suggestion that your guillotine approach to your H�s infidelity is anything other than rational, clear-headed decisiveness. Most posters are praising you for cutting the cr@p where others have dithered. And I kind of agree. Those of us who had children did not have the luxury of a sharp cut, but many of us would have chosen that route had it not been for the kids.

However, the reason most of us �dithered� was that it took a while to get everything straight in our head and work out where we were. Biologically, it takes the brain a period of time to a) deal with the shock and b) build new pathways to assimilate and process the information. For most of us, our values system has not usually had to be deployed for an eventuality like this, so we have no ready response lined up.

I�m therefore fairly suspicious of crisp decisiveness soon after D-day. It implies to me either that the situation had been already processed at some conscious/subconscious level, or that the reaction � however cool and rational it looks on the surface � is coming from an irrational place and is fired by emotion.

There�s a slight optical illusion that happens on threads like this. When there are many posts in a short period, it tends to disguise the actual elapsed time in which events are unfolding. You first posted here on 17th January, by 18th January you had an attorney, and were already planning how to optimise the outcome of your divorce. You didn�t Plan A to any noticeable degree, and by 20th January your H had moved out. Yes?

It was a QUICK decision. No humming or hawing. No doubts.

And no self-questioning.

THAT�S what�s surprising. See, most of us ditherers spent a fair bit of time asking ourselves what we contributed to the state of the marriage, what we overlooked, what we were in denial about, where our fears made us afraid to deal with known problems, where we needed to have stronger boundaries, where we need to toughen up, where we needed to be sweeter. That�s not to say we blamed ourselves for the WS�s choice to cheat, but we owned up honestly to our own contribution to the state of the marriage. We �took our own inventory�.

I don�t see that you�ve taken that inventory.

Can I just get you started by quoting some of your words on this thread?




Would you say that the fear of being seen as a fool, as someone who is not respected, is perhaps driving you in the current direction? Would you say that there is a deep insecurity that you don't want to look at?

Because something went wrong with this marriage, wouldn�t you say? And you were half of that structure for three decades. And you still have a lot of life to live with the same internal constructs.

TA

TA...great questions.

First, the timeline when I first started posting here was compressed. I had first discovered what I thought was my H's infidelity about two weeks before I started posting here. I had felt something was different for several months. When I confronted he gaslighted me with the "we're just friends" crap. I spent two weeks feeling crazy, reading Shirley Glass's "Not Just Friends" and in intense snooping. That led me a few days before I found this site to find 40 emails between them on his computer and receipts for the two of him having dinner in his hotel room at a conference a few months before. So, I was initially crushed, then got pretty damn steamed shortly thereafter.

Also, my H had not been Mr. Supportive during my mom's 6 months of intense illness. At the time I discovered the affair, I was already angry at him for this as I had been extremely supportive and helped as much as I could during his parents' illnesses and ultimate deaths. I had a couple of intense arguements with him about this in those months of mom's illness and he was obtuse in the extreme.....not like him during the rest of our marriage. Of course, he was having an affair at the time with student....if I had not been so consumed with my mom I'm sure I would have picked up on the vibes better....but I didn't have the time or emotional energy to deal with his off-track attitude and behavior in addition to mom's terminal illness and meeting her needs as best I could.

So, I came here January 17 already pretty angry with him and the final discovery of his gaslighting when I tried to deal with him honestly was kind of the last straw. I had confronted him with the emails just I think 2 days before coming here, and he still gaslighted and denied, then admitted but said he'd stop the affair but couldn't drop her as a student....blah blah blah. Hurts my head to even think about it all now....

As to my cut and dried run to divorce. I'm a person who hates indecision, dragging things out, am maybe impulsive in that way. The way I dealt with my marriage is me. I try to look at things objectively and decide what's best. I have to be frank. Reading here of all the people embroiled in agonizing relationships for what seems like long periods of time convinced me I am not cut out for that. And the idea of Plan Aing a cheater, a person who betrayed me when I would have bet my life he would never treat me in such a way, well....I would have a hard time doing it. I understand the concept.....it's just not something I think I could bring myself to do.

Also, yes, being seen as a fool and someone not respected would also be hard for me. I started my career in my field at a time when women were not commonly in such positions. I fought for respect, to be seen as competent and in control. I had to play in the boy's club for years and so my personality has certainly been shaped by that and my willingness to work (or live I guess)with people who treat me with disrespect is very limited.

As to what went wrong in our marriage? I honestly have to say I'm still stunned because until my mom's illness and H's withdrawal (which in some ways appeared to happen simultaneously althought I am not sure of the timeline for the start of the affair) I would say we were like most long married couples. We were comfortable, maybe took each other for granted too much, but we had an active social life, traveled and had great times frequently, enjoyed our homes, and were nutty over our pets. I think my H's affair may have started a short time before my mom's illness, or maybe it was an infatuation and turned into affair during my absences during mom's illness. Who knows?

Do I feel responsible for the demise of my marriage? NO

All of this is me, good or bad. It's who I am. It certainly played a part in why I dealt with my marriage in the way I did.

LLL, I just want you to know that I am exactly the same way so I can relate to you. I make decisions pretty quickly and would never do Plan A because I am simply not cut out for it. I know who I am and am well aware of my limitations. I don't have the personality for Plan A.

Nor does it take me long to make decisions. I can usually size up a situation accurately and quickly. While most people are confused and dazed under fire, I am clear headed and make my best decisions under fire. Am I sometimes wrong? Yes, but in the time it takes me to correct my mistakes and reach a favorable result, another person would not have taken the first step.

I don't think most people are wired like this, but I do understand you and don't think you made a hasty or unwise decision. I believe you when you say you are not cut out for Plan A. Some of us are not.

Wh had the chance to go to LLL and talk about anything he felt was wroung with the marriage honestly and openly. If she would not listen he had the choice to seek counsel up to and including this site. If he still wasn't happy with her he was free to leave above board after doing all he could.

The way he acted was in my opinion why LLL dropped him so quickly. He acted in a way that does not deserve respect and she wasn't going down that road with him.

I too had a problem with how quick it happenned and asked LLL if she thought WH was just sick emotionally and would it be a good idea to explore that. Then I realized LLL valued integrity in her H and when that was gone, it was allready over. Her husband no longer existed and she needed him to fight for what HE threw away.

Lets brain storm a sec and I will lay out some possibilitys

Lets say LLL is a formidible woman in the bussness world and doesn't make excuses for herself or the people she works with. Lets say that her husband originnaly respected that with her but as time rolled on and he had questions about himself he never felt comfortable about didcussing them with her because he was intimidated by her no-nonsense attitude. Eventually those issues he had became even more real in his mind untill he was convinced she would "Never understand".
These are common issues faced by all ppl. Did WH like the fantasy world that his W credited him with? Was he afraid to admit to her that he was having problems? Would it havedone any good for LLL to give his problems validity by letting him off the hook for his deception? The reasons that he could not communicate with her were never disscussed. He just ran. When he mans up, and he knows what that means. He will be sorry and appreciate her for not letting him off the hook and buying into his BullChit.
You don't have to be a colledge proffessor,(lol), to figure that out. She probably knows more about love and the actions of it than most ppl who fall apart when this happens and deserves credit for it.

I take issue with ppl who think that love can't be real unless everyone agrees they have suffered enough for it. being alone and responsible for others who abuse ppl is suffering enough. Many don't even see the sacrifices ppl make for others and having children is not a badge of proof you love. Its a chance to give them love even when they don't know what it is. We choose to view our love for others as a place where we will suffer for them and expect credit or a priveledge we can share. Do we suffer sometimes yes but ussually from our own expectations.

LLL,

I think you have done exactly the right thing for you. You seem to know yourself, are confident, and secure in your decisionmaking.

I was married to my first husband for 7 years. When I found out about his infidelity, I got out of the marriage and never looked back, never had a regret. My recent situation was entirely different for me.

In any case, I think you will do great.

AM

3L:

TA asked some great questions. Thank you for posting a thoughtful response.

Yes, it appears that MANY here are amazed that you were able to reconcile discovery of your WH affair and the swift move to Plan D.

Many here wish that they had done that as well.

My wife, Flamingo, included.

I changed after Dday. I learned an amazing amount of stuff on MB two days before Dday. Many of these traits in me that I had to change, I see in your WH. The illness of your Mom, and the nearness of Ms. HP exploited those traits until he was deep inside the A.

It was that change in me that allowed Flamingo to imagine reconciling with me. To continue in this marriage. Yes, we had a kid and intertwinned finances, and even dogs. But she was looking for the get out of jail free card, and I finally gave it to her.

She was ready to cash it. You did.

We have a great marriage now. I wish it had been something else besides an affair to show that to us.

I've said in the past that your WH may still come back. Your are both accomplished people, and every wayward thinks that thier spouse is just gonna die without them. Your not. But he is facing the explosion of his fantasy. So, this to may pass. He may look in the mirror and try and fix it.

You don't have to fix it. Not today, not six months from now, not ever.

This is a site about Hope. Hope for a marriage that may seem totally gone. We have seen worse marriages and sitchs turnaround.

You will be OK either way.

LG

Amen, LG. I have thought that many times while reading LLL's thread. While I applaud all of her actions since she started posting and I like the way that she has applied the MB principles to fit her personality, I have thought that one day, Prof H may come crawling back fully willing to make ALL neccesary changes. I guess that I am a diehard romantic. I can see LLLs holding the hoops very high while FWH jumps through all of them and begs for more.

God's Blessings,

Say

LG and say, I hope for those things too. There are ppl here who have reconciled after years of divorce also.


Time will tell..

well its friday...maybe LLL will check in soon...

Hope your doing well! Update us!!

Hope all is positive!!

She must be hiring the new gardner...or took some time out of country, I trust she will be fine