Huh?

I think I've been open and honest here about my angry outbursts.

Unless you are talking about one time when I grabbed my wife, I don't know what you mean by physically abusing her.

I'm not trying to hide anything. Let me read through all the new recent posts here, and then I'll answer all questions.

Great, but asking questions doesn't help when she doesn't answer. And it has been like this since the beginning of our marriage. I cannot care for her in the way she needs because, as you say, I do not understand her, and I do not understand her because she does not practice openness and honesty about her feelings, and essentially never has as long as we have been married. Throw in my increasing use of immature love busters to try to get her to become open and honest (stupid, yes, I know) and she's even more reluctant to be open and honest than ever.

It wasn't always like this. It started with me asking her to tell me how she felt about things. I came into marriage expecting she would answer, and would work with me to achieve understanding, and was shocked when she didn't. Believe it or not, I don't believe I started out trying to get what I needed through angry outbursts, selfish demands, and disrespectful judgments: I started with exactly the approach you describe, and when it didn't work, I had no clue at all how to handle it. Desperation + inexperience + immaturity = something really horrible.


They pretty much do, at the moment, but we've had a lot of trouble in the past.

Are you revealing to me that my wife is not enthusiastic about the current ways we use to put our children to sleep? Because if so, that is news to me, news I probably need to know. If you are aware that she has a problem with it, could you encourage her to talk with me about it, or else suggest productive ways for me to approach her about it?

Actually, I didn't grow up with my mother. She's my step-mother, and became so when I was 20.


That's going to be difficult since I will no longer see them until my wife is enthusiastic about it.

One time early last year my wife accused me of never attempting to satisfy her sexually. Less than a month before we had had a traumatizing bedroom experience in which I attempted to offer to satisfy her sexually and she wanted to decline but was very uncommunicative about it. I handled the situation very stupidly, resulting in great trauma for us both. This is not the only time we have had such traumas, and I have not always been at fault.

At the time of my wife's accusation I had made several other attempts to offer to fulfill her needs.

So her accusation stung me deeply.

I became very angry, shouting at her.

She left the room, and I pursued her into the kitchen.

At the door from the kitchen into the next bedroom I grabbed her and held her, shouting at her. I held her tightly enough that she was bruised, which I found out a day or so later and was shocked about.

To my knowledge, that is the only thing I have ever done to my wife that could be called physical abuse. I am pretty sure she would agree that it has never been repeated.

I do not expect her to just forget it or just get over it. But I was not aware that it was a present issue to her. We have talked about it since then and I was under the impression things were good, especially since we went to counseling last year since then and left that counseling on what we both felt were very good terms. If there's anything else I need to do about the situation, I am unaware of it.

I have admitted a number of angry outbursts on this thread. Several of them. For the record, all of them have been non-violent. In fact, I think they didn't even involve shouting, but I may be misremembering.

I haven't recorded here every love buster that I or my wife have committed in our six year marriage, and I don't know which ones are most significant to her nor which ones you guys might find most significant to help us. I am not trying to hide anything. What else do you need to know?

For what it's worth, after my wife spoke with Steve Harley, he didn't ask me anything about any physical abuse.

Not trying to attack you Markos. It's just that I read the thread your wife started.

I understand. I don't feel attacked; just surprised.

Again, to sum up: one incident a year ago in which I grabbed my wife hard enough to bruise her. Other than that, I simply don't know what else she might be referring to. And I probably need to know. And, I've admitted my angry outbursts several times on this thread; I know you haven't gotten to read everything, but it is in there.

I'm not trying to hide anything: what else do you need to know?

Markos,

Yes, I admitted that I did not read everything.

Did you read the thread your wife started?

is he supposed to read her thread? I dont think so cuz its her place to get support

Oh OK.

Just asking.

Markos, just a couple quick things......


And that's why you are here and that's what you're working on, providing a safe enviroment where she can be open and honest without fear. And dude, let me tell you that you are doing awesome. Sure there have been some back steps and sure you've reached for old habits but by in large on the whole you are envoking positive change on your marriage...... Keep remembering that it's not a sprint, it's a marathon. Today, she has hope. Today, you have hope. Good on ya....


I don't believe the poster was revealing that about your wife but rather it's time for them to go to bed by theirselves so you and your wife can have that time. I read to my 18 month old for 5 minutes before bed and my 3 year old for about 10 minutes and then doors shut. GOOD NIGHT.....

My wife has told me it is all right with her for me to read it, but I think it would be best if I did not so that she feels safe saying anything she wants there. I asked her if she WANTED me to read it, and she did not say yes.

If you get the idea that she does want me to, please let me know.

Okey doke

Thanks; I was worried for a minute you were going to say otherwise.

I hope she's felt a difference, and I hope she's starting to feel hope.

I am committed to doing whatever it takes. I just don't think she's ever felt it would be possible, no matter how much effort is expended.

It took me way too many years to figure out that she didn't feel safe to discuss anything from the get go and to figure out that I needed to actively do something to make that possible. And I still don't know what all I have to do. I started marriage with the belief that anything could be handled if we talked about things, and that by doing so we would both be happy and would remain in love. I had no idea what to do when she didn't feel willing or able to talk about things, and my grief and agony and mistakes over this have been tremendous.

Still working.


I'm a little mystified as to what situation is being envisioned. The children do go to sleep by themselves. We tuck them in, pray with them, and leave. Occasionally one of us has to go back there to discipline them and convince them to lie still and not wake each other up. In the past one or both of us has had to sit watching them for long periods of time to ensure that were required to be still and go to sleep, but that hasn't really been an issue the last couple of months. They are little guys who are still learning.

My wife and I put the children to bed and spend 2-3 hours together alone, practically every night. It's mostly spent watching television, as I noted above in an earlier post. I recognize that that isn't good undivided attention time, and I'm looking forward to discussing changing that with her once Steve Harley introduces the subject to us. (I don't believe it would be good for me to introduce it, or to do any more attempt to "educate" my wife on marriage builders principles, other than occasional discussions if she seems enthusiastic. We're talking a lot lately, and that's good. We see Steve next week, so I'm waiting on him. )

What I'm wanting to know is did you guys get the idea my wife is feeling like we're not getting enough time in the evenings and there's a problem with our kids? Or the impression that we're spending every evening apart taking care of the kids? My wife may well have an impression that I don't have and need to know about, or something.

As a poster that has used this board for 5 years as a couple...it's impossible NOT to read each others threads. I just encourage both Markos and his wife to NOT post on each others threads. No matter how bad you want to set the record straight or explain YOUR feelings on the issue...don't (unless you have to on your own thread such as this question regarding physical abuse...which begged an explanation).

I'm giving Markos the benefit of the doubt about that incident. I get the sense that his wife, after reading this thread was quite upset (as I've gotten over the years reading stuff about me) and she went into her brains expansive filing system and pulled out the worst things she could say about Markos. I believe strongly that IF and WHEN they both work the program and fall in love...all of Markos's gripes on this thread and her grievances will become history. It's just a typical bad marriage with young children. It's good background information for us...but couples counselling on this board isn't really what we do here. We aren't very good at refereeing disputes (that's what the horrible marriage counselors are for) and I'm just glad his wife started her own thread (smart girl) instead of quoting and giving her side to the story on everything Markos said in this thread about her.

His wife said "I just want to be loved". Evidently...that is what Markos wants as well. With MB coaching they both have the same goal. To me...it sounds like before they were both in their own corners saying "I want to be loved" but neither was offering much "love" until the other provided it. Now...hopefully they BOTH will be learning to handle their side of the street and as a TEAM start to take loving actions which will result in creating romantic love for them. If they are both smart THAT is much more effective use of their time here than the "airing of disputes/grevances".

Another thing...Markos has ventured around the boards giving advice to others from time to time and I encourage his wife to do the same. You both will learn a lot about each other (and the MB program) as you take in a wide array of scenarios and issues of others and discuss them amoung yourselves. Helping others as a TEAM has been one of our "recreational activities" going on five years now and it has made a huge difference in the manner we communicate with it other. MB lingo is now our lingo. It's like we have our own language (that we really only share with the great people here on these boards).

Good luck you two,

Mr. Wondering

p.s.- As a word of advice Markos. I was a lurker for quite awhile and my wife actually posted here first. Since you already believe in MB, you may want to back-off seeking your own advice for awhile (still helping others when you have the time) and let your wife take her thread in whatever direction it takes. SHE is the one that has to buy into the MB program and if your thread competes with hers and/or she just sees this place as YOUR place or always on YOUR side as you air things out simultaneously on your own threads she may miss out on a really great thing here. THEN...once she's on board you'll hopefully find that neither of you need to air much here about your own situation as you'll TEAM UP to fixing your own marriage and the arm-chair non-professional opinions and advice of others won't matter much by then. You'll be on your way to marital happiness (while staying around here helping others along their paths while keeping you connected to a source of accountability (us...keeping you both focused on marriage)).

I did want to say this to both you and your wife...

YOU ARE SO LUCKY.

It took the freight train of infidelity for my wife and I to find this place. It was the worst thing and the best thing to ever happen to us at the same time.

I'm jealous you get to do this...without the "worst thing" part.

But please realize you both were just inches from the infidelity edge. From your posts...if just the right attractive person of the opposite sex even winked in your direction....you were both RIPE for an affair. In fact, Mrs. Markos's post at first glance could be read as a typical former wayward wife's post. I had to read to figure out she hadn't cheated. As you rebuild, which can very difficult in an of itself, be mindful of your boundaries with members of the opposite sex. You haven't fallen back in love...YET so be careful. Please.

Mr. W

Yes, I agreee with Mr W. these 2 are very VERY lucky!

Lucky because they both want the same thing at the same time - to save their marriage and lucky because they both are interested in using the MB info to do it.

I wish I was in that situation so much.

Best wishes & positive vibes to Markos & Prisca!

I agree also with Mr. W.

As horrible as I feel my marriage was (and it did contain infidelity on his part) and as close as I was to the D train and as frustrated as I still feel many days I know this...

He really, really wants to work on our marriage. He immediately jumped on board with SH. He agrees with the shared goal "for the parents of our children to be romantically in love with each other again".

I wish he would read the books, poke around the website, read the articles....but that's not him. I'm hoping he might take the initiative if Steve suggests it. For that part, I'm in agreement with you, Markos...let Steve do the educating!

I just want to add one thing, Markos, for you to think about.

You don't have to touch your wife to be violent. My H has never touched me in a violent way, but his AO's caused me to start reacting to him as if he beat me daily. Some women wouldn't have reacted that way to him, but I did. And no, I do not have a history of being abused. I am just sensitive to other people's moods and extremely sensitive to loud noises. Him shouting at me, looming over me (he's much larger than I), throwing things, etc. resulted in my having a great deal of fear of him. I shut down and wouldn't open myself up to him in any way VERY early on because of his AO's.

I am not labelling you an abuser, just as I do not label my H as an abuser. What I am telling you is that good people fall into abusive behaviour, and it doesn't have to be physical to be abusive. Some people are more reactive to AO's than others, and everyone's response is different. I'm advising you to consider that your AO's may have been, to her, as bad as if you'd hit her, from the very beginning.

Ditto what TAC said. My husband's AOs are the BIGGEST LOVEBUSTER for me. Just ONE angry outburst can undo weeks and weeks of building up the lovebank.