I believe what you are saying is 100% true Markos.

But you can see that keeping yourself triggered all the time is a FAIL too, can't you? There is no value in bringing up traumatic events, it solves nothing, except diverts you from making the present great. The past is gone. Nothing can be done to change it. People are much happier when they don't waller around in all that. WE can't solve problems of the past, but we can solve the present and the future. That is what counts.
And we can't solve present problems if we are lost in the past.

Chris, I used to go to counseling for YEARS, and it kept me emotionally crippled. I left sessions angry and triggered. That helped no one except the IC's pocketbook. Studies have even shown that people with traumatic childhoods do WORSE in counseling than those who don't go. Did you know that?

Exactly! And that comes from retraining ourselves and practicing good behavior. We all have control over our behavior TODAY.

I agree with Markos that your marriage and personalities sound similar to ours. And I've been thinking all day how to respond.

Your husband is in withdrawal. Withdrawal is fresh on my mind right now, so here's my 2 cents. He's not going to just come out of it on his own and start acting loving towards you. It's not right and it's not fair, but you are going to have to be the one that steps up and takes control of the situation. He won't do it. Ever. He sees no need to, and sees no hope. You are going to have to show him there's hope.

He will say mean things. You must respond with kindness.
He will be hurtful. You must be considerate.
He will do whatever it takes to push you away. You must remain calm.

Chip away at his wall by filling his EN one at a time, even if your actions are rejected. Markos told me he read somewhere that if an action would normally deposit 100 love units in a happy marriage, it will only deposit 1 love unit in a withdrawn spouse. It will take A LOT of perseverance. But you can break through.

And, whatever you do, avoid LB at all cost. You will lose every single love unit you deposited, and justify withdrawal in his mind. And you will have to start completely over.

I'm still new at this. But, that is what Markos did for me, and it worked for us.

Thanks Prisca,

Perhaps an MB vet will view this differently based on what I have shared, but I don't think my H is in Withdrawl anymore. People in withdrawl don't initiate "Big Talks" about the marriage (he's done that 3 times in the past 3 days) and they don't do it because they notice their spouse is upset and ask "Why are you upset?"

I will definitely continue to work on eliminating LBs and depositing ENs - cleaning up my side of the street. I think this will work out as long as I do that. I am hoping we'll be in May's Marriage Builder Weekend.

Melody,

You seem opposed to individual counseling but I need professional asistance. I tried to solve my problem on my own for years and it hasn't worked.

If I get the sense that my counselor has no experience with what I hope to accomplish or is making things worse for me, I'll find someone else immediately.

I sincerely appreciate everyone taking the time out of their day to encourage me. I guessed that my feelings were typical (The Taker rising up & rebelling), so that's why I asked for help. I know a few MB vets have seen this before.

Okay, I see that your signature has now changed. It used to say he was in withdrawal, IIRC, which is what I was going on.

Chris, have you read some of Dr Harley's writings on this type of counseling? Dr.Harleys opinion reflects the findings of numerous studies that counseling can often keep a patient depressed and triggered with anger. One really good book that covers this is One Nation Under Therapy by Christina Hoff Sommers.

I would ask that before anyone tell me that the solution to my internal problem is as "simple" as expressing myself without LBs such as SD, DJ, etc...please read Prisca's recent statement about her feelings from the ONE time Markos physically hurt her. My H physically harmed me more than one time. And I have had other experiences which I am not sharing here, but are very similar. This all loops back into my feeling that negative emotions are to be denied.

I hope this gives you an idea of why I am choosing IC rather than repeating the mistake of attempting to tackle this on my own. Although you posted the info above Mel, Dr H recommends IC several times for certain situations in his book and in the letters on this site too.

I am not going to discuss everything which happened in the past, dissect it, and try to resolve it. I am going to learn techniques to help me manage my memories and my emotions.

Chris, are you saying you have no control over your behavior? Because we all have internal problems, but we still have a choice over whether we engage in lovebusters. [unless we are mentally ill]

Yes, I can control my behavior. With the practice over the past few weeks I have become more and more skilled at making thoughtful requests and not verbalizing DJs. I hit a wall with emotional dishonesty. I am not ashamed to admit that some things have happened to me in my life which gave rise to that particular difficulty for me. And, I am not ashamed to seek the help of a professional to help me shed some of my "internal problems" as you said.

Why are you so opposed to IC, Melody? Did you have a bad experience with it?

I started IC right before my surgeries. I had about 4 sessions. I always felt much better after each session. The doc was helping me reframe things in a more positive way.

Another goal: I also want to get to the point of not even thinking DJs too.

I wasted years and years in counseling and it never solved my problems. It did keep me angry, triggered and abnormally focused on things I could not change: my past. Now I learn that people who do go to counseling often fare WORSE because the counseling a) keeps them depressed and b) distracts them from focusing on the present.

And this makes sense to me as someone who has seen extraordinary personal recoveries in AA and in MB, not from counseling, but from making behavioral changes.

What I have learned is that feelings follow actions, and the most impactful, effective programs are based on that premise. The effective programs are behavioral, rather than feeling based.

What made the most dramatic changes in my life was making behavioral changes. Talking about my feelings was a waste of time. But changing my behavior dramatically changed my life in a very positive way and this has been my observation in AA and around here.

I do believe Dr Harley when he says that exploring one�s past is a diversion from the present and this has been my own experience. The solution to my problems was always found in the present, not the past.

So, perhaps I need to be very clear with my Therapist up front: A firm statement about not dredging up the past. A very focused goal of managing emotions, specifically working on not being fearful to express negative emotions.

Chris, I hesitate to add another perspective, because you have folks talking to you here who *have* restored loving marriages for years and years now, who *are* living the dream.

That said, what I see is your H provoking you until you get upset. Him showing relief and willingness to connect with you again once you are "acting like the crazy one." Then telling you this is your burden, to win him back, to give him reason.

But it's okay, just a snapshot in time. I have a lot of hope that your new actions can bring lasting changes in your marriage and family.

I'm going to offer a slightly different perspective than MelodyLane, based on my own experiences with IC, and also my journey in Alanon (same 12 steps as AA, slightly different focus).

In Alanon (in AA too? ML?) we talk about the three "A"s, which are Awareness, Acceptance, and Action. Taking action without acceptance can be very dangerous because it may be forcing a solution for the wrong motivation, even if it appears to be the right action on the surface. And practicing acceptance without awareness can very often be preemptive denial. Awareness is where we get honest about our emotions and motivations; acceptance without understanding our motivations is not truly acceptance at all.

So first we must have an understanding of our motivations, as well as an understanding of what I can control (myself) and what I can't control (other people, places and things). That's awareness. We often use the serenity prayer to guide us. "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannont change (acceptance), courage to change the things I can (action), and wisdom to know the difference (awareness).

In my experience, taking action without awareness has often meant trying to change the things I can't, while accepting the things I shouldn't.

Having an IC, a sponsor in alanon, a 12 step program to follow, a support group to lean on, and even a great MB board to come to are all parts of AWARENESS for me. Even dredging up the past is, in my experience, a VERY important part of healing. That's why there's a Step 4: Make a fearless and searching moral inventory. Can't do that without examining the past. And in my experience, it's not safe to examine the past without the help of another person, whether it be a counselor, trusted friend, clergy, or all of the above. In fact, those of us who have any kind of disfunction in our history probably need a trained professional to help us sort it out.

I also think I can get so caught up in trying to find perfect awareness that I completely avoid action. Sometimes it's important to act in faith, and trust that God will deepen our awareness as we go. Action and Awareness both can be taken to extreme, and I prefer to find the middle ground.

Just my opinion. Take it for what it's worth.

I strive to get to a point where I no longer regret the past, but at the same time, do not shut the door on the past. Both are extremes. Best to look at the past through the eyes of acceptance, if only to avoid repeating the same mistake over and over again.

NED,

Thanks for being honest with what you see. Part of me felt like that too. I decided to not give in to that feeling because I thought it came from my Taker.

The other thing is: Let's say he did do that (what you described). If I want to save my marriage, then I have to be the one who bears the "burden" of doing the work to restore the marriage (temporarily.) Marriage Builders says the same thing to Betrayed Spouses in Plan A.

It's tempting to let pride (or my Taker) take over and say: "Why the heck should I bother with him? He provoked me into acting like the crazy one, was relieved that I did and then was willing to reconnect with me because of it, and now I have to be the one to do the heavy lifting at this point? Well harumph ((arms akimbo)) No way Jose."

Then I might as well start posting about my divorce in the Divorce Room...but I'd much rather be posting like Markos & Prisca.

Chris, your part of that dance is to not be the crazy one. Easier said than done, but I've found it tremendously helpful in my interactions with H to vent here or to other friends BEFORE I respond to H's crazy-making behavior. At that point, I'm much more sure of my position, which makes it easier to remain calm.

I know exactly what you mean CW. It's hard to admit it, but sometimes I really am the crazy one though. We take turns.

For example, I should be very offended if my spouse tried to snuggle up (or more) in bed with me after telling me he is considering a divorce. Two words which come to mind are "deceptive" & "disrespectful." And, I've seen that before - guys knowing they are leaving someone or cheating yet still having sex with the girlfriend / spouse who is unaware) Logically I know that (heck - it's what I would have said to a girlfriend going through this) but emotionally I actually got upset...I even pushed the question.

Sometimes it's possible to vent here before confronted with a crazy-maing scenario from our spouses and sometimes it isn't because it sneaks up on you...so, we need to be able to think on our feet too. The forum helps me with that as well. Reading about other people's experiences, questions, and observations gives me lots of ideas about how to handle certain things when they come up - not only in my marriage but with other family members and friends. I am learning so much from being here.

Truthfully, in our first "Big Talk" when DH flatly refused to speak with Dr. SH... I felt that in certain parts of that conversation, DH was engaging in crazy-making, denial, and blaming. These are things DH definitely does; however, I did not feel he was doing that in this particular conversation. There are other portions of this "Big Talk" which I did not share partly because I did not want to type a long long post (I want to get away from doing that) and partly because I was so blown away by this new and honest "us." Those portions involve me expressing to him that I felt hurt / angered / betrayed by specific things he is doing now. I also asked him very pointed questions about him physically abusing me.

I am just amazed at how good honesty feels (even when it hurts) and I want more. Does that sound weird?

Honesty is honestly easier than deceit. You've thrown off a burden, that's why you like it.