There is a huge difference between assigning fault and taking ownership.

You need to take ownership for 100% of what you've brought to the marriage. H needs to take ownership for 100% of what he brought to the marriage too.

The choice to have an A is of course owned by you 100%

It's all about the heart. You need to have a change of heart.

Do you feel you've had a significant change of heart??

Why would you marry a man that never told your DS that he loved him? That would be a huge

Hamster, I gotta be honest with you.

The only thing I am concerned about here is the kid. You got overwhelmed with the idea of marriage. I don't know what was on his mind, but I won't ask until he starts his own thread. You tried to make your dream chicken salad out of whatever parts of a chicken you could find. You ignored how the two of you fit beforehand yet persisted.

Talk about hard headed, sheesh. But that also makes you good at what you do in your chosen career. Right?

What you will learn from this forum and Dr. Harley's methods is how to be a partner. Not a wife, not arm candy, not a mom, not anything but how to be a happy partner. And you will learn not to settle for anything less from whoever you marry in the fullness of time.

The oil and water relationship you had is over. You made an investment and handled it like a teenage girl, ignoring the obvious and having flings to get charged up. Now it is time to get your big girl panties on and grow up. For one thing, your son needs you as a parent, not a wounded duck who shot themselves in the ego.

Life isn't over, just the deal you were in. There are other deals you can make, right? And wiser for what you learned, so it isn't a total write off.

Larry

@ tst - I don't see the huge difference between accepting fault and accepting accountability. In my opinion, by stating fault, you implicitly accept the accountability for that fault. I don't think there is a right or wrong here, but that is just my life perspective. So the answer to your questions is -- yes.

@ hope - I guess I thought that since we were'nt married I couldn't hold him accountable to tell "my son" that he loved him. I thought I could only have that expectation after marriage---maybe I sold my son short here.

@ Larry - Understood. DS is gone to his fathers full time for the next month so I get to play "wounded duck" for awhile---but I'll get it together for his return. I'm not going to let this devastating life experience sabotage my family or career. I'm 31 years old and I know life is a lot longer than that!

I recently asked H why he never told DS that he loved him prior or during our marriage. He also rarely (though he did at special occasions) hug or show affection to DS. He said that his father never told him that he loved him or hugged him so that is how he was raised.

This upbringing is in contrast to how my parents treated me---they often hugged me and told me that they loved me, were proud of me, that I was a good daughter, etc. In turn, I have treated my son in the same manner. So I guess when DS---saw me behave one way and H another---he came to a conclusion that H "didn't like him" (in his words). Of course, I would always reassure him that H did care about him. I am not saying my way is the "right" way...just thinking through the "gap" that a little kid might have noticed.

Just throwing it out there as a reason for why H never expressed the sentiment that he says he holds for DS.

hamster:


I find it odd that you spent many years with the guy and just now got around to asking something that important. You gotta do the relationship stuff up front instead of letting it drag out for years. What was his reply? BTW, that answer you got is total bull droppings. It is a lame excuse and he knows it. Most women don't talk guy, so you may not have known.

Sorry.

Larry

I too, was raised in a home where my father was "distant." He never showed affection to his children, rarely got involved in our activities, and was narrowly focused on advancing his career and his stature. My mother was the one who took me to scout meetings, to my little league games, etc.

When my daughter was born, I wanted to make sure I didn't treat her the same way. Along the way I became heavily alcoholic, and in fact, did treat her much the same way.

Thank God I got sober. One of the first things I did (and continue to do to this day) is to make a "living amends" to my daughter. Hardly a day goes by that I don't tell her (in person, on the phone, via email or via text) that I love her. When I first got sober, I used her for "hugging practice."

It's never too late to start a new beginning.

See hampster, this is how guys really are. If Fred had not turned into a drunk, he would have followed through. Now he is making amends and he has no lame excuses!


And I would bet Fred is not offended by what I said. He has turned himself into a good guy at considerable effort and he deserves recognition for that.

The fact is BN didn't hug your kid because he didn't want to. I haven't a clue why unless I needled him into a one.

Larry

hamster,

You said

Of course your parents did...YOU ARE A GIRL! A signficant fraction of men are reared just like your H. I was and so were most of my friends.

You know as this thread goes on, I have been changing my mind. You have no more business being married to your H than a man can jump to the moon. You have no respect for your H. You feel is and was a failure. Your affairs confirm all of that and you expected him to change into prince charming when you married. I would say this disaster of a marriage is alot more than 50% your fault. You married a man you had no respect for and you married a man that you feel is not a good father to your child. Whether that feeling is correct or not, you were wrong.

My guess he did respect you. My guess is that he loved you. My guess is that he thought you would be a good partner and had no intention of changing you. I know he was wrong.

There is an old saying that you seem to be giving evidence to.

Both points of view are increadibly stupid.

Please think about this.

JL

Hamster & BN,

This is a sad situation..sadly avoidable.

Lots of people here, myself included, are ardently pro-marriage and pro-affair-recovery (when the opportunity exists). But, even with a repentant fWS, 2 affairs within the first year of marriage is an awfully tough scenario to even consider potentially-salvageable. I wouldn't do it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I also remember reading somewhere that even Dr. Harley usually advises divorce when a spouse has already been unfaithful within the first two years.

BN, you can learn some great lessons about ENs for your future.

Ham, you really need to learn about boundaries, commitments, and (frankly) how to grow up. Marriage is way more than ceremonies, pictures, pomp, and being the center-of-attention in a white dress.

You two may have "been together" for a while, but you have only been married less than a year. You have no kids together. There is a lot less between you than in a marriage 10-20 years in duration that had never been betrayed before.

I HATE divorce, but this one seems pretty cut-and-dried to me.

So sorry...

I raised what H told me when I asked him because I did think it was a valid reason and that is why I mentioned it here on this thread. A few posters raised 'red flags' so I wanted to be sure that they knew that H was not a some "evil step dad" and that maybe he had his reasons. I mentioned my own upbringing because I was "thinking out loud" reasons why DS might have felt that H 'treated him different'---maybe because it was different from my family. I'm not an expert on how men are raised, but I am an expert on how men are raised (my brothers, my son, my cousins) in my family and that is what DS is contrasting. It's a different family environment and maybe H had his reasons.

I disrespected H when I had the affairs, but I do respect him and I did respect him throughout the relationship. I've said before on this thread that he is a good person and deserves to be happy---I really mean that. And I do hope (maybe I'm delusional) that we can be friends one day.

And he is not a failure---he is not the most ambitious man and I wish he was more driven, but he is not anything close to a failure. I never felt that he was a failure ever and I actually encouraged him to have the business career that he enjoys now. When I met H years ago, he was in a rut, dropped out of college, and not very confident in his ability to go back to school. I encouraged him to go back to school, told him that he could do it---I even supported him financially for two years! And he did very well, not because of me, but because of his own hard work.

And I will also say that he paid me back for all of that by supporting me financially while in graduate school, years later. He was very supportive of me.

My H and I were best friends before all of this mess. I know its hard to know someone's whole life in 15 pages of a thread on a forum---but I am sincere when I say that he (outside of his faults---which everyone has faults) is a good person. I disrespected him with the affairs---but I respected him prior to that and I respect him now.

Oh yes, I should probably update the thread to say that we officially decided to divorce and we are trying to make it amicable. We realize its a big mess, but no sense in making more of a mess out of it.

Thanks for everyone's thoughts---but no need to post anymore "you should divorce" posts as the decision is made. Unless of course, you just want to say something and then, by all means---its a free world!

Out of respect for JL, he is usually more right than am I, I won't argue much with his POV, except to say that men tend to hug boys way more in your generation than in his and mine, or in your husband's father's days. It is sorta accepted now.

It is quite common for your generation to have a marriage where the wife makes more than the husband. There are more opportunities in white collar jobs than in most of the technical fields because of job export. Women tend to focus on white collar jobs, while higher earning males, used to be higher earning males, tend to lean toward more technical work. There is little left of high paying blue collar work to be had.

Sometimes it is ok with the partners, sometimes not. Sometimes wife looks down on husband, as JL says, and sometimes husband is defensive or worse. It just depends. But that said, this is a part of your generation and many couples have dealt with the simple fact in healthy ways. In other words, they don't care. Others do. I remember talking to a young lady not long ago who has a high paying job. She was complaining that there were few men in her area who made as much as she did and they were all married. I also know of one couple where the female is a VP of Marketing and husband makes decent money, not approaching his wife's, as general fix it man at a school. And those two have one of the best marriages around, with lots of mutual respect.

Now to the meat of what I have to say. I have been thinking about this for a few weeks and what I say may be applicable to your situation.

See, I hear women talk about "Their marriage." I hear guys talk about their "Family." Kinda different terms, you think? It is as if the guys think they are a part of something, and the women think they own it. "Their marriage" indeed. Did they buy it at WalMart? "My marriage is important to me." Heard that a lot too. I cannot remember one single guy ever saying that. He might say his wife is important to him or his family or his kids, but never have I heard a guy say his marriage was important. Maybe I haven't been listening. Maybe I need to take more of a survey.

What I sense in you, hamster, is that you fall in the category of "My marriage is important to me, and I want it back after I crapped all over it." Sometimes that works and sometimes, most of the time, it doesn't. Partnerships can be recovered if one of the partners craps all over the relationship. This is because of the prior emotional investment that was made to become one of the partners in the past. Somehow one or both drifted. But it can be recovered because it was a partnership, not just a marriage. As you have been told, the list you posted show several deal breakers. And partnerships are very much deals, each contributing what they bring to the table.

In a partnership, each contributes their own individual skills and capabilities. There is a lot of give and take and settling in to do, but eventually, it all works if the parties have any basis in reality. A marriage can be different. There is a wife role and a guy role. Sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn't depending on how well each plays their role and how happy they are with that role playing. But there is far less room for error in that arrangement. Wife decides that wife is not enough. She decides to look on Aisle Nine instead of being satisfied on Aisle 21 a few years back. Or she rents a thrill by having an affair with someone she would never have married.

If you think of marriage as something you own, you are playing with bad odds. If your husband doesn't want his role anymore, chances are slim to none that you marriage will survive. At 31, you have plenty of time to do some attitude adjustment and find a life PARTNER with whom you can mate.

Just saying. . .

Larry

Hamster:

Ok, got it. Now hang around here if you have the time and get an education on what marriage is all about. And by all means, help others to help themselves. The collective wisdom and knowledge on this site is extraordinary.

Larry

Thanks Larry! You have written some very insightful and helpful posts on this thread.

Too bad I didn't find this site months ago before the affairs---i would have probably saved myself, from myself.

Thank you. My goal is to cause no harm. I provide insight if I can find my glasses and information.

As Satchel Page (greatest pitcher who ever hurled a baseball) said, "Don't never look back, something might be gaining on you."

Hug your son. Good night.

Larry

Start a thread in the divorcing forum.

Hamster,

I am sorry that you two have decided to call it quits. It always saddens me. I do hope you stay around and learn some more. You say you respected your H before your A's. I wonder how that could be since having an affair is the definitive act of disrespect.

You listed many complaints about him in your posts, and then you say he is a great guy. Are you seeing mixed messages here? I am. I think you are still in "the fog" as it is referred to here and your thinking is still a bit wayward. Please work on that. Learn from your experiences as you have a long life ahead of you and a son to rear. I do hope your H also learns valuable lessons before he embarks on another relationship.

Again, I am truly sorry that it has come to divorce.

God Bless,

JL

Hi JL

I am just seeing this post now.

I understand your point. But I can't say that I did not respect my H for the entire 8 years of our relationship. I do believe and understand that there was no respect just prior to and during the affairs. I can't say that it was 8 years of no respect and it's not the "fog" saying that.

I see the inconsistencies in the latter statements, which I am sorting through now. I wish someone could just give me all the answers!

Hamster,

The answers? What are your questions? The answer to a good relationship and marriage is rather simple: treat it and your partner with respect and love. Accept them as who they are and cherish the time you have together.

You do those things and many other issues take care of themselves. You had the affairs because you did not value the marriage and you did not value your H. That is why saying you always loved and respected your H rings bells and sends up flags. You still want to change him and make him a "hard charger."

Please step back and look at this and you will see the inconsistencies (sp). Learn from them. Your marriage could be saved but you need to see your H in a totally different light than you do. Until you see him as a gift to your life, there is no chance.

God Bless,

JL