I definitely think it can be taken to extreme The point is to progress.

And in the case of someone who has some trauma in their past, like abuse, I think it is neccessary to have a profesional guide you through those emotions. People can be walking around with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and they need help from a counselor, as well as the support groups and self-help that are available.

TTT, the steps are the same. In AA, the focus is on changing MYSELF because that is the only thing we can control. That is how it is in Alanon, too. The steps are not opposite between the 2 programs.

PTSD is very rare and is entirely different from childhood trauma. Most people do have childhood trauma, they do not need to get help from a "professional" to resolve it. That is a myth.

Keep in mind that Dr. Harley is a very qualified �professional� [a leading clinical psychologist in the US, with 35 years experience] and this is what he says:

As someone who experienced a very traumatic, abusive childhood, I can tell you that �counseling� was detrimental to my personal growth, not therapeutic. It kept me angry and triggered and diverted from working on problems in my present. A person does not need to examine their past to change current behavior.

There are studies that demonstrate that those who go to counseling for traumatic events actually suffer more depression than those who DON'T. Check out the book, One Nation Under Therapy for more detail.

Chris, there's a great quote that I try to strive for in my own life (which ironically comes from AA's "Big Book")

"We will not regret the past, nor wish to shut the door on it."

I have wasted so much of my life doing both of those things. I got married to shut the door on my past, because it contained a lot of pain I couldn't face, much of it due to my own choices; I thought I could just become a different person, and I did. I became a person I hated.

Recovery, whether it's marriage recovery or individual recovery, is about getting back what was lost due to dishonesty with myself or others. Those who don't know the past are destined to repeat it. With recovery, we get the gift of our past, the gift of acceptance, and the gift of learning from our mistakes. We can't learn from our mistakes (or the mistakes of our family legacies) if we simply shut the door and move on. Rather, for me, recovery is a journey toward deeper and deeper levels of acceptance, while at the same time I take actions WHERE APPROPRIATE, and when I know that my motivations are pure and not tainted by stinkin thinkin and trying to control other people.

I started this thread because of my feelings of anger, fear, & resentment towards my DH that morning. My DH and I had a conversation in the evening which I think was very positive and very eye-opening.

I have decided that I am going to use a therapist to assist me with some personal issues I am facing.

Concurrently, I am still going to use MB to work on my marriage.

Thanks to everyone for your help.

Thanks Thinking

I never thought about that, and I can definitely see your point. I'm lucky that I've had two very good counseling experneinces, but I will also say that being in alanon and having a sponsor is not only cheaper, but WAY more effective in actually enabling me to live a better life!

With my coverage I pay $0 for the therapist. I am happy about that.

I agree!! My first sponsor was a Dominican nun and I got more from her [censored] whoopings* and careful guidance through the steps than from YEARS of counseling! She didn't want to hear my crap, she just said "knock it off." End of story!

My life changed dramatically inside of one year because a good sponsor will help you develop NEW, PRODUCTIVE habits and won't allow you to get diverted with self pity or other some such nonsense.

� I know you Alanons don�t need your [censored] kicked, but we alcoholics rarely respond to anything less.

Chris, I think you are going into this with knowledge and you know what you want and what you don't want, and I have faith that you are able to discern whether you are getting what you need or not.

Thanks CW.

LMAO!!!!!!

Chris, I�m on a �thoughts for today� email list, and when I just opened today�s and read them I thought of you immediately. Nothing is coincidence, I believe! So I thought I�d share. Take it for what it�s worth to you!


And this one:

Chris,

I just wanted to clear up a couple of things from my earlier post.

First of all, I did NOT read the entire thread from beginning to end but did "scan" it the way I read memos at work to see what I feel I need to respond to and what is something I have no opinion or stake in. I seldom give an opinion on something on which I have no opinion.

My Managing Memories thread is really about how we can control our feelings by changing what we choose to think about so that when we make choices we are not reacting the the feelings of things of the past in an irrational way. It comes from the fact that we cannot choose how we feel in regard to memories of the things in our past, but we CAN choose to not focus our attention on those things that cause us to feel negative emotions.

If your IC can help you concentrate on things that you do have control over rather than focusing hours of reliving the pain and sorrow of what happened in the past, I think that IC can be of great help to you or anyone else. Unfortunately, most counseling models are not modification of behaviors and reactions to things of the past but merely a rehashing of days gone by which takes our thoughts into the same memory files that we wish to avoid if we are trying to avoid being triggered into experiencing the negative emotions of those events all over again.

Just like I don't have to understand why I began smoking, how smoking becomes addictive or the way the brain reacts to the chemicals in cigarette smoke that cause me to become addicted in order to stop smoking, I can make changes in what I do going forward that make me begin to think differently about the past and the way the things from my past make me feel.

Overcoming resentment for what has happened to us in the past or for what other people have done to us in the past is as much a matter of what that person does in the future as it is dealing with the things that they did to us. It is even more important to focus on what they are doing now and going forward than understanding why we responded to what they did to us.

Again, I think that this is what makes marriage builders work where other programs often fail. Rather than fix what was the result of years of doing things wrong by examining those wrong choices and actions in detail. MB strives to change what each spouse does going forward and by doing so, fixes the root causes of all the problems that came from years of doing things the wrong way.

We have the mistaken notion that we should lie to our spouse for various reasons, for example. We might feel that we are protecting them, protecting ourselves or simply avoiding conflict when we lie. But the reasoning we used to justify lying does not eliminate the need to tell the truth in its entirety from now forward.

Likewise, we might have handled conflict in the past by attempting to overcome the complaints of our spouse in order to have "peace" between us. We might have lied about our own feelings in order to accomplish this or might have used various methods of overcoming his or her resistance to what we wanted so that we could get our own way, even believing that our way was what was right for the situation.

But MB teaches us that how we attempt to resolve the conflict that we face every day is more important than actually coming to agreement. Leaving a question unanswered is better for the relationship than figuring our who is right and who is wrong in our assumptions if figuring that out is going to hurt one or the other or both in the long run.

So while it can be helpful to identify those things we did wrong in the past, it will be what we learn to do differently going forward that will change our lives much more than understanding why or how we came to do them the less beneficial way in the past.

IC can help us learn new patterns of behavior or it can keep us mired in the pains of the past. Unfortunately, many ICs tend toward the latter rather than the former. If your IC can help you change your own actions and reactions, then IC can help you in the long run. But if your IC goes back and makes you relive every painful moment of your life, like so many seem to do, then what will likely happen is that you will continue to experience the pain and fears of the past long after you could have changed the way you react to emotional situations on your own by choosing to simply react differently than the way you once did.

The concept of emotional memory management is to change what we think about to something more positive instead of allowing our minds to dwell on things of the past. It does not strive at all to help us understand why things hurt us simply to prevent us from hurting over the same things again by continuing to think about them.

And just a point of fact, the fact that you insurance carrier pays 100% for your IC, does not remove the cost factor, even for you, from the mix. Somebody is paying and in the long run you are too. My only concern is the emotional cost of reliving the painful memories while we lose focus on what could be done to stop hurting instead. Understanding our pain does not reduce it. If that pain is the result of memories, then finding a way to stop thinking about those things is what will stop the pain of the events of the past. The fastest way to do that is to replace those memories with new ones that are much less painful.

Mark

I fully support Chris and her choice to see an IC. It's in response to her H's thoughtful request.

Chris is dealing with adult trauma she sustained prior to just four years ago.

And Mark and others have great threads, Chris, on how to retrain your brain to NOT trigger. Many different ways...none of which is the shut down/shut out method you've attempted.

They are aware, loving actions you can take, laced in acceptance of the past without being a prisoner of it. Many suggestions have been made on MB in the Surviving An Affair forum over the years how to do this. One can work for you, with your IC. I know you'll dig and find them...because infidelity is like physical abuse...humans trigger...not all bad or all good...we just do. Overcoming the ones that sink our present into the past is always a wise choice.

You can do this. I've said before how important I believe this is for your marriage. You're half of the counseling experience...you have equal power in that context...and I believe you'll use it with awareness and really ask for what you want most.

ML - Gotta say, rump-kicking is as necessary in Alanon as it is in AA...in different ways. See, Alanon are addicts who carry their drug inside themselves at all times. Don't have to go to a store to buy it to indulge. We take us with us everywhere we go.

LA

Awesome post as usual, Mark!

So true!!!! I'm one of those "nice girls" who gets away with it 90% of the time. But that 10% when I actually get called on the carpet is where the growth is. I'm grateful to have friends who do it with unconditional love

I will tell you that I have absolute and endless gratitude for those in AA who cared enough to kick my [censored]. Even though I didn't like it at the time, I fondly and gratefully remember every [censored] whooping! ["you need to take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth, young lady!" ] I love every one of those people!

On the other hand, I don't even remember the ones who just told me what I wanted to hear.

Mark I could tell you skimmed by your earlier comments. I can tell you did the same thing again because you are telling me the same things which I have already said myself in this very thread several times.

I am going to be honest here at the risk of offending a very popular MB vet (or 2) because I feel that this is an important enough point: First, Mark - I want you to know that I find many of your posts to be very informative and inspiring when you're actually engaged with the subject of the thread. I don't feel that's the case here and it bothers me because I was in real and actual pain when I started this particular thread. You chose to focus on the threadjack topic about whether IC is a waste of time. In a way, it's insulting. When you do this, we're not having a discussion - you're just preaching...and in this case - preaching to the choir. I feel that now this thread in which I ask for help is an academic discussion on the merits of IC versus whether IC is a waste of time...

Mel, I am saying the same thing to you. I was describing my trouble with personal issues and then before I knew it I was being told that I should not go to IC. A few pages ago I shared that I understood the various POVs re/ IC and the potential hazards & I also shared that my decision was to get help from a professional... yet the IC is a waste of time comments continued at the expense of the actual topic of this thread.

Someone please correct me if I am wrong or if I am misunderstanding the culture of the forum but I don't think that what happened here is OK because I notice that most people in the forum are polite about threadjacking. They start another thread right?

ETA:

For anyone who does not support my decision to go into IC, your comments are noted:
Once again your points are:
-dwelling on the past is not a way to manage the future
-you feel IC is a waste of time or it could cause more damage because most IC professionals focus on feelings rather than behavior

I got it.

Now I would appreciate it if you would stop this, because as I said earlier - I am going to try IC and I am going to be very specific about my goals and my desire to focus on behavior and the future rather than do an extensive autopsy of the past.

At this point what I am asking for in this thread is for people to provide support and help me if they can.


I will also probably share my experiences with IC when I start it next week. Your continued support (if you are able) will be appreciated.

Thanks everyone.

Chris, I will just point out once again that you are free to put me on ignore or report me to the mods. If you do not like my posts, just take what you want and leave the rest.

I won't mind and I bet Mark won't either!