Hi, TB81. Chiming in late, here - busy weekend.

Drop this OW poster like a brick. Do NOT listen to an active wayward. They will not give you clear advice.

Do you know if Vampira has a Facebook page? Get on there and print out all of her friends. That will come in handy for exposure.

Have you exposed the A to their employer? This needs to be done as part of exposure.

What is your WH's relationship with your sons? Has he been a hands-on father? Taking them to Iowa will not sit well with him if he's been active with them. So of course you should return with your children to the support of your family.

Do not let WH use your past transgressions to manipulate you. He has forgiven you. That is over.

Read read read everything on this site. I would also suggest that you stay away from other sites that will offer advice that is counter to what is here. The tools on this site are all that you need.

Yes, I would stick with Plan A for awhile too. This is the time you are negotiating OW out of your lives. You can say simply..."There is not room in this M for OW and me..."

He wants you both...

When he asks how a return to the marriage will happen you explain about how he will need to move back to Iowa and how he will have no other contact with OW, ever, and never be apart from each other again.

Practice fulfilling EN's and cutting out ENTIRELY the LB's. Give him a good M to come back to.

Don't villainize the OW right now, he is in the fog and will defend her. Do not concentrate on OW right now.

Do you have a pastor either in CA or in IA or both you can contact that will call/talk with him or your both? Hos faith has gotten offtrack and it is a good idea for someone to help reset his compass...

But if you can stick around for a few more weeks and practice being a better W, the W he will come home to...please do.

It will be hard when he starts spewing this nonsense, this fogbabble...you just babble back to him...

"She has nothing to do with my feelings for you"...."I hear you say she has nothing to do with your feelings for me."

"We should have never gotten married."...."I hear you say we should have never gotten married."

Etc....

It's amazing to see the contortions they twist into to rationalize their affairs...

We usually have a post of the crazy things our WS said to us during the A...just amazing. Don't try to argue with them, they have to keep up this charade to make it OK in their minds...but they know what they are doing is wrong...they just have to bury it deep and it eats them up inside. I practiced the eyebrow raise...and saying..."Wow..."

As far as how much blame to give the OW...put yourself in her shoes...if you were an interloper in someone's M would you expect the BW to be angry with you? Of course you would... And that will come later...

I think you should do some more snooping.

Can you install Flexispy on his phone before you leave?

Then you will be able to SEE the content of their text messages.
I believe you can also listen in on phone calls (even from Iowa).

Then expose it far and wide.

If you go to Plan B -- he doesn't get to be at his son's birth.
Its going to be one of MANY events he misses out on because of his involvement with OW....

Hi stillheremakingit! Thanks for the advice. I can't stick around for a few more weeks because my flight leaves today. Just last week I spent 3 days at my uncle's and he was not happy about that. But the last two days have been good. No fighting and I haven't been doing any lovebusters, atleast not to my knowledge. I plan on keeping in touch with him when I am in Iowa and sticking to plan A for awhile. He wants to come back to Iowa to see the new baby when he is born, which will be in about 5 weeks. I don't know if things can change that quickly or not.

As far as fogbabble. Well, I hear what everyone is saying about that. I understand. They will talk crazy to justify their affair. I am really confused about whether or not his feelings about our relationship are definitely connected to this woman. The reason why is when I told him about the past thing from college that I had kept from him (my original post talks about it-it was before we were dating but we both knew these two guys who i had done something sexual with while drunk, but i did not have sex with them. he always wanted to know EVERYTHING about my past and he pestered me until i told him.) well, when I first told him about it he got real upset and he was saying that he didn't know if he even would have dated me because of it. (although there were plenty of worse things from my past in highschool that he knew about and didn't bring up ever) Then he said he felt he had no real choice in marrying me b/c he didn't have all the information from my past. He told me this over a year ago when I had told him about the college thing. Then he said don't worry about it, I'm glad I married you and we will get through this. He never mentioned it again.

Flash forward to him moving out to California for his new job and after being alone for 2 months he starts acting funny. Very distant. Then flash forward another two months when he comes home to Iowa to get his family. He starts bringing up the past thing from college and all the mistakes I've made. He said he was questioning everything. He said being alone for 4 months and away from my manipulation and control helped him to see our relationship clearly. He felt that he had possibly made a mistake, or rather that he never really had a choice in marrying me b/c like I said before, he didn't have all the past information.

Then he starts going on about how I have taken 9 years of his life and his youth is gone. I crushed his dreams because I asked him (when we were 19) to please not pursue basketball at a professional level. (he was good but broke his ankle senior year, dind't get to play college ball, maybe could have) I was young and scared he would run off and be an NBA player and cheat all the time. I was just young and stupid. I never really wanted him to seriously give up all his dreams.

Then he says I always gave him a hard time about acting and his music. (we both went to acting school) I realized what hollywood was really like and the work hours are outrageous. I only gave him a hard time when he was gone for 15 hours just to do extra work. I wanted him to succeed. And the only time I gave him a hard time about music was when he would work all day and then come home and work on music all night, even in the middle of the night and not spend enough time with me or the boys. That's it.

So when he was in Iowa to get us he was telling me all of this. No mention of the OW or anything. I found out about her b/c he kept getting text messages and then I found the call log. He lied to cover up a lot of things regarding her.

I'm just wondering if all this stuff he is saying is coming from a real place or if it is only justification. Since he was real upset when I told him about the college thing and said some of the same stuff he is saying now, I just thought maybe he really does feel that way and it has nothing to do with this woman. But I suppose that is wishful thinking. Would he even be justified for trying to end a marriage (in the name of God mind you, he uses God for this) because of past events and dishonesty about something from before we were dating? And he loves to say that he was the only one trying for 9 years and I wasn't. He said that throughout our relationship. I admit, I was selfish a lot and during our fights I wouldn't really try. I would just get angry. He feels I was manipulative and controlling throughout our entire relationship. I admit I was like that during fights and things like that, but in my heart I never truly wanted to control him I just wanted him to not run away whenever we fought. That is what he would eventually do, each time. Anyway, I feel that he thinks so little of our relationship and maybe he really thought this stuff before this woman. Maybe I am not worth it and I messed up too much. And maybe God really wants him to get out of this. See how confused I am? Back and forth each day. I am so scared.

Even if you were not the perfect wife before the affair, it doesn't put you at fault for it.

You were 50% responsible for the state of the marriage but he is 100% responsible for getting involved with OW. Get that straight and now look onward.

You will read and learn about being a good partner with the books from Harley. Love Busters and His Needs, Her Needs are all great to study along with Surviving An Affair.

If your H rebuilds with you eventually, you will have the knowledge for doing things better.

Past is gone. Move towards the future with information and direction.

When you go to Iowa, set up a Skype connection to plan A with. A video conferencing to stay more connnected for your plan A. The kids can conference with daddy too which is great.

Then, when you go to plan B you will not participate in the conferences any longer (once he has the love letter explaining your need to separate until he commits to the marriage).

Be strong. Take care of your sweet little family.

He is justifying the A. Look, TB, Radical Honesty is a good thing in a marriage. It lays your soul bare. Nothing is hidden. It's refreshing for both partners and makes the M more intimate. However, RO should not be used as a weapon, and that's what your WH is doing. That is completely unfair of him. But totally normal for a wayward. They glean through everything about the M in order to justify the A. Don't let that make you crazy, okay?

It's also not uncommon for 'people of faith' to invoke God's name as a way of validating their adultery. Don't let him get that far. Remind him that God blessed your union and surely wouldn't bless the adultery at the same time. Those two things don't go together in Holy Wedlock.

I understand what you are saying. I am so focused on all the things I did wrong. I just know in my heart that those issues can be worked out. It all depends on whether or not he wants to work them out and obviously he would have to drop this "friend" he has. He tells me that if he can't get over the past and come to peace with it then he probably cannot stay with me. But I thought that getting over the past or coming to "peace" with it would mean it's totally up to the person, it is a change of their mind about what the past means, right? I do think that if he wasn't in this affair (though he still denies it's an affair and confuses me because he has always been so honest) he would have an easier time working through our marital issues. As of right now though, he does not see a marriage. And Larry and others have told me that that is typical wayward behavior, rewriting marital history. I so desperately want my family to be saved from this. I do NOT want a divorce. Not at all.

He does not see a marriage and he says this is because God does not work in lies and deceit. (he is talking about how I was dishonest about two past events from before we were dating that happened in college. he says that he should have had that information so he could have everything he needed to know before he married me) He believes that God might not have wanted us to be together or married. He thinks that maybe God sees this marriage as invalid. So therefore he cannot see the marriage as "valid" right now. And he will not admit to anything. He swears up and down that they are friends and they have a strong "bond" but that nothing romantic is going on and that nothing physical has ever happened. He has always been such a strong man of faith and has always been so honest. This has blindsided me.

Also, MB...he says that he loves this woman as a friend. He says they are close. Like I said earlier, they have a strong "bond". he is seeing me as a shrew wife who did everything wrong and seeing her as this wonderful woman who he should have had along right? he says he is confused about our past and needs to "figure it out" and try to come to peace with it. But he says if he can't come to peace with it then he will most likely have to leave me. and he says it won't be for another woman but it will be for him. is this all just fogbabble? it is hard to ignore what he is saying. really really hard. he is very convincing. would God really see this marriage as invalid? because i was dishonest about something that happened before we dated? and because i had the one time very very short one night infidelity that i like to call the one minute stand b/c it literally ended as fast as it began. i stopped it b/c i was horrified at what i was doing. my original post and a few others talk about it. but my husband forgave me. i have never done anything like that ever again. i do not have a drinking problem anymore and that was part of what led me down taht stupid path anyway. but i don't know. i just feel like complete crap right now.

Baloney. All of a sudden, he strikes up a 'friendship' with OW and decides that your union might not be valid??? This is called 'blameshifting'. It's what formerly honest, faithful spouses do. The honesty goes out the window when the adultery comes in.

I don't know what kind of agreement you had with your WH. Did the two of you agree to tell each other everything you ever did with a member of the opposite sex prior to your M? Did HE tell YOU everything? Was he a virgin when you married? Did he predicate your M on how chaste you were prior to exchanging vows?

TB


My first introduction to adultery was when I was nine years old. I was a very committed nine year old at a Church around the corner from where I lived. A deacon ran off with the Pastor's wife. It was a very big scandal. We have one person on this forum right now who is a Pastor's wife and her husband cheated.

The seeds of infidelity are in all of us including committed Christians.

By the time you read this, you will be back in Iowa, a safe place. You will have more time to develop a plan and work the plan, free from the daily stress of interacting with a fogged out husband. With the baby coming, daily stress is probably not a good thing.

You are getting good at seeing through the babble. Congratulations for recognizing your husband's mental state is scrambled right now. You done good

You asked me for more on Vampira. You have been asked to forget her, but of course you can't. She is the enemy. And I agree that she is the enemy. Understanding your enemy is important in the battle to recover your marriage and an intact family now blown up by nothing I can see that you did.

Go back to what I said about her. She is an aging hedonist who understands the SoCal lifestyle. She found herself a juicy Iowa peach fresh from the farm, to use SoCal speak. In other words, a less than sophisticated male who would get infatuated with her and prop up her flagging ego. And your husband IS infatuated, no doubt. And she is infatuated with what your husband is doing for HER ego. To her, he is an object, not a person. Talk about role reversals. . .yes, women can do that too.

She has her fangs in him. His infatuation and unwitting lack of knowledge makes him vulnerable. He has no idea that 'Personal Trainer" in Southern California is all too often a snake pit of adultery, hedonism and alternate lifestyles.

He will learn, but at what cost to himself and his family?

Basically, he is like the frog, happy in the cold water that soon warms up as time goes on and eventually the frog gets cooked because he never got uncomfortable enough to jump out.

Vampira, on the other hand, knows exactly what is going on, why she is doing what she is doing for as long as it takes for her to get what she wants and what the end game will be after she sucks his life juices dry. She will eventually cast him aside and find another target. I have no idea how long that will take, it could be longer than you have the patience to wait.

It is your task now to adopt new tools for dealing with marriage and family life. Up till this time, you have used the tools you had and from the perspective of who you were as a person. Now you have the chance and the motivation to become a new person, who learns new tools. By tools, I mean a new understanding and methods of dealing with your new insight into relationships. I wish you well.

Larry

He wanted to know everything, but I was scared to tell him about the two guys from college (even though it wasn't nearly as bad as the stuff i did in highschool) because of the fact that we both knew them and were in class with one of them. the other one he played basketball with and had a friendly relationship with, but not good friends. he feels disrespected because he feels that everyone knew (only the guys and i knew, no one else) and he was the only one who didn't. and one of the guys came out to california for a visist and wanted to see us so we got together for dinner. there was nothing romantic between me and that guy and the thing that happened was once and was never brought up between me and that guy ever again. i can see how my husband would be upset, but i never wanted to tell him in the first place. i was not a virgin and he knew that. he knew the other stuff i had done. he was not a virgin. but i don't know if he has told me EVERYTHING about his past. i really don't.

oh and that visit to california was when we used to live out here in 2005. so not recently. i hadn't told him about it at that point. but would he have a valid reason to get rid of me according to his logic?

Tinkerbell- The waywards(think of them as an alien species who share a BRAIN) tend to rewrite history and justify their affairs. Not just for the outside world, but for themselves too. The things that your WH says has been said by other WS. The words may be a little different but they are all saying the same thing.

Your H wouldn't even think of leaving you and your children. Your H has been taken over by an alien and that's why we call him a WH. Anything that he says to you about how OW is "just a friend" or that you have problems that have nothing to do with POSOW are ways to deflect you from the REALITY. WS take on many history rewrites.

My WH started by saying that we weren't happy for the last 3 years of our M(he met POSOW 2.5 years earlier) and in the next 2-3 weeks he said we hadn't been happy since before we got M and he didn't know why we did. My response was, "I guess in a couple more weeks you will say that you didn't even want to ask me out in the first place and erase the other 6 years of our relationship." It's CLASSIC.

Don't be discouraged by his words. When he starts spouting off all of his bull poopy, just think of his as the teacher from Peanuts, "Wahh wahhh wahhwa wah wah."

Plan A and take care of yourself.

Sorry I'm late to this party. I rarely post, just read and try to find gems that help me through the day or make a little sense of what's going on with my WW.

But, I can respond to this:

1) Even if the affair hasn't gone physical (I'd give the same odds as winning the lottery), it's still a deep emotional affair and just as damaging. You are entirely correct in demanding it be ended.

2) Every single one of us here have heard the "just a friend" excuse. There is only one answer to this absurd statement.

No one ever turns their whole life upside down, rips their family apart, and alienates everyone they've ever cared about for "just a friend". Think about this statement.

Tinkerbell,

So sorry you find yourself here but you can thank GOD that you found MB. First, your husband's Christianity means NOTHING right now and he is using it as a hammer. My DH (FWH) was one of the strongest Christan men I knew, until he fell and had not one, but two affairs. He dove almost to the bottom and nearly died as a result of his fall. AND he lied the whole time, it was all my fault, we should have never married, blah, blah, blah.

Your marriage can recover and your best chance for that is to follow the plans here on MB. Listen well and implement the advice you are being given here.

Whether your WH is sleeping with OW only makes a small difference at this point because right now he IS having an affair, even if it's an emotional one.

With your pregnancy, I think you should only Plan A for a short while and then go into a very dark, dark Plan B. Maybe when he comes to see you when the baby is born, you can have everything set up and ready to go. Let him leave knowing that he will no more contact with you until he gets his act together.

What you did in your past is in your past. You came clean and have honored your marriage vows since then. He has not and is not.

How old are your children? Do they know why you're moving? What have you told them?

Well, thereyago. One set of rules for you, one set for him. He is out of line for this.

Again

Again

and Again. . .

He is infatuated with Vampira. It doesn't matter that he is a Christian. I have seen Priests and Pastors get infatuated and do the deed.

He is fogged out. Every word out of his mouth is to justify what cannot be justified. IT IS CALLED FOG BABBLE.

Don't believe a word of it.

Plan A, relax, regroup and start learning.

Quit looking inside of yourself for answers. You won't find anything there but hurt, confusion and self blame. It isn't your fault, it is his.



Larry

Tinkerbell

More insight into Vampira.

Years ago, I had a friend who had been in the military. He was a serious stud, but not very sophisticated. If you know what I mean.

He was also a serious fighter. He was like the middleweight champion of the Pacific Fleet, a big deal

Anyway, he got out of the military in San Diego and decided to see what Hollywood was all about. Now picture this 24year old guy, with good muscles, looked good, etc. He got a job as a general flunky on movie sets.

A movie star noticed. She was your basic established star, looked good but having problems holding on to the looks as she aged, and partied, and whatever. But she was glamorous and she got interested in the fresh peach that was working on her sets.

And she got him. He was totally infatuated, moved in with her in her mansion and oh boy, did they have fun, talking, laughing and partying and all the good stuff. He thought he was in love.

And he still worked.

One night, he came back to what he thought of as home. She was walking down the stairs, stark naked. She had a bottle of champagne in one hand and the other hand was holding on to the exposed body part of the nude guy who was walking down the stairs with her.

She said in a drunken slur, "Hey xxxx, meet your replacement."

I asked him what he did.

He said, I walked out without the rest of my clothes, spent the night in a motel, got my money out of the bank and came back home, where I belong. If I had stopped to get my clothes, I might have gone to prison for beating the xxx out of two people who were not worth the damage to my hands.

True story. I was in college at the time and I took it as a life lesson. Because it was. Never mind why he told me that story. Just trust me, I needed it at the time.

Life is about living. We make mistakes, live, hopefully learn and change as life goes on. Life isn't fair, but life beats the alternative. So long as we do what is right, we can live with ourselves and that is the important part.

I know you don't feel safe right now. But you will, in time.

Larry

OK, no more talk about your past...I get it, other folks on here get it, and if we don't we could go back and read your posts.

HIS A IS NOT ABOUT WHAT YOU DID IN THE PAST!

You will not know how much of this fog babble is real or justification until the OW is out of the picture.

When he starts justifying his A to you, call it what it is and practice saying things like, "I will not talk with you about this while you are continuing your A with ...." If he goes on and on about how it's not an A or you had one too, just say, "I will not talk with you about this while you are continuing your A with ...."

Call it an affair at every turn. Talk about other things other than the R. Do NOT talk about your R. And do NOT talk about the OW other than to say, "She does not have a place in our lives, and I will not talk with you about her until she is out of your life."

Do NOT talk about your past transgressions with other men right now. Practice saying this, "I will talk with you about this when we are reconciling and OW is out of our lives, but not now."
These past events have NOTHING to do with what he is doing right now...please do not jump off the track to try to link these things together, you will just waste your time.

And feel free to say back to him some of the things he says to you..."God does not work in lies and deceit..."

Time to be focused on reconciling your M, repairing, and negotiating a return to your M that does NOT include OW in it...

As far as not ALLOWING him to follow his dreams? He made those choices, not you. You asked him to make some choices, and he ultimately made the final choice. You can only take so much blame for another person and it seems he has you well trained to take most of the blame for his poor choices....