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((blindsided))
Hello...
I just posted here after a short absence. I am going thru my own situation now. I have just read this thread again now today. However being new here I am not one to give any advice.
I just wanted to say that I have lived with my wife's off and on depression now for quite awhile. When she first started recognizably suffering from it and had her first breakdown I was confused and lost too and did not know how to approach her. As I recall I went to the library..no internet back in the early 1970's..and I found the book "Moodswing" and read it. It is about people suffering from depression and manic-depression. It openend my eyes and at least gave me hope and insight, because prior to that I blamed myself for her breakdown. This book was probably published sometime in the late 1960's or early 1970's, so it either is dated now, or maybe has been republished, not sure. I don't even remember who the author is, but it honestly helped me tremendously.
To all of you here who posted...I have read all the posts and the only thing I can say is that you will all be in my prayers. It seems that that list is now expanding every week.
Also, I am an old-fashioned catholic...in at least teachings and principles and Not in practice...I go to church probably twice a year. In the christian faith this is Lent now, and even tho it is half way thru, I am now stepping back from the world for awhile, and asking for help, and also trying to think of my own situtaion as objectively as I can. I am focusing on fact now that I am not the only one in the world who is hurting and in need of prayers and support.
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26
It is good to see you posting. And I think that you are doing a good job of sharing your experiences and the knowledge you have.
This is a follow up to what I posted to you some time back. Did you go back and read what you posted again from a different perspective, or not?
Dr. Harley says don't drive a spouse to having an affair, paraphrasing what he said. I found this yesterday while I was once again reading his basic concepts, surviving infidelity and newsletters. This is how I try to keep in my mind what he has to say when I post suggestions to folks in need.
That semi-quote from Dr. Harley is apropos of nothing I know of in your marriage before affair. Just something in response to your defense that you were a great wife.
Confessing your husband's sins is a good vent. And when I see someone doing it, I generally ask them, "What does that accomplish?" If you have the time, you might want to go back and not only read what you said, but also what I had to say. In addition to the ones on this thread that found it helpful, I have had others comment that it was spot on.
I have seen some progress in your efforts to heal since you first came here and that is a very good thing. I believe you intend to be with your husband till death do you part and that is also a very good thing. He owns 100% of the affair. And you own 100% of your 50% of the state of your marriage. He owns 100% of his own stake in his relationship with you.
Those are givens.
You are going to have ups and downs and ins and outs as you heal and the two of you bond again. Please consider my hopes and prayers to be with you as you march down the path of life.
Larry
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Larry, sorry it took me so long to get back to you, but honestly I had forgotten all about this particular thread.
You're gonna have to seriously break it down for me. I don't understand where you're coming from with your statements. Help me out and make it plain and simple. If I'm in error, please correct me, without the riddles of course. I'm on this site to learn as much as I can to make my relationship better.
I can be brutally honest at times, but no harm intended. I reread what I typed before and still don't get what was so wrong with what I said.
I meant it when I said 2 wrongs don't make a right. Our marriage was great, really it was. If you were to ask our family and friends they would tell you that I was, and keep in mind, still am, a GREAT wife. I took pride in that. So what my husband did was a surprise to me and even him. Yes in the past I've questioned him about certain women, because women just love men that are out front. He is a well known man with a some what powerful postion. We are well known in the county inwhich we live in.
Like I said before, even if I wasn't a good wife at the time, it does not give him an excuse to go and have an affair. If he wasn't happy, then all he had to do was say hey sweetie, I'm not happy with the way things are going. Communication has never, ever been a problem for us.
Yes, when he gets tired of my questions, sometimes I do say to him, well you should have thought of the consequences of your actions. Is that a lie? No it's not. He should have thought it through before he did what he did. I don't pitty him because he made the boo boo, not me. I love him and we are working it out and are coming along pretty good, thank God. All of my reactions are due to his actions.
So, Larry, point blank, tell me where I'm wrong. I stand to be corrected, matter of fact, I welcome it.
"Never get in a bed if your name isn't written on it"
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Ok 26 fair comment.
Watch this space.
Be tomorrow.
Larry
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26 I want to emphasize that I took your words at FACE value. I will try one more time. My comments are in red. Keep in mind that I will be using Dr. Harley's teachings as best I understand them in order to make my points to you. If you do not believe in Dr. Harley's professionalism, or just pick what you do agree with and reject those where you think your opinion is worth more than his, then I have wasted my time. I am also not going to do a bunch of links. I just finished a complete review of all the information on this site as I do every few months or so. I think everyone should enjoy or force themselves to do the same if they are serious about having a happy and thriving marriage or give advice on how to have one. Here is what you said: The betrayed spouse is definetly not the blame. Agreed, the WS is 100% responsible for that choice. The betrayed spouse is responsible for their part in the state of the marriage and Dr. Harley makes specific reference to not driving the spouse into an affair.
The reasoning is that an unhappy spouse is vulnerable and while they would never just go out and have an affair, the unhappiness allows the seed of adultery that is in all of us to grow and consume someone who is vulnerable. Heck, most of us don't even understand when we are in an unhappy marriage. It is this vague feeling of something not being right.
I don't care if I wasn't a good wife, I don't care if I wasn't meeting his needs emotionally, physicall or socially. Of course you should care. Well, at least you should care NOW! Now that you know better, right? ... Er, you do know better now, right? You have read SAA, right? And you trust Dr. Harley's teachings, right? The bottom line is 2 wrongs don't make 1 right. No matter if the marriage was in shambles, he still doesn't have a right to go out and have an affair. I mean honestly, do you think that will make the marriage better. Well duh! Of course what he did was wrong, which has what to do with your 50% of the responsibility for the state of the marriage before the affair? Does that mean you get a free ride to ignore the state of the marriage before his affair? Dr. Harley says that as part of the recovery process, the betrayed spouse has to do their part. Do you remember reading that part?
Let me say this another way just for clarity. Suppose, and this is just supposing, that you were completely responsible for a marriage that was in shambles, and your husband did NOT commit adultery. Who gets the finger of outrage then? That was just supposing, so don't yell at me. It was a moral point I was making.Well, my Husband at one point stated that in the past, I've always accused him of cheating. Boy did I let him have it for that statement. Two things here.
Did you always accuse him of cheating? Did you really or was that just him saying to guilt shift? Use your estrogen memory to go back in time and think about it. Ever heard about that one. Estrogen in women gives them a better memory than men. Which is all men need, a wife who can remember ALL their transgressions. 
Dr. Harley said that. So did you say it? If you did, that was emotional browbeating. And if you didn't have any proof, was not the wisest thing you ever said. Were you always accusing him of stuff before he had his affair? Was accusations a part of your way of communicating with him? Did you go around confessing his sins all the time, love busting?
Really?
Remember, Harley says BOTH the WS and BS have to make changes in the way they do business. What changes have you made, really?
Second, did you really let him have it? On what grounds? And what did you really let him have, a good tongue lashing? And what did the tongue lashing accomplish other than it made both of you feel bad?
True story right from this forum. The couple is now recovered and in a happy marriage just for the record.
Husband is insensitive to wife's emotional needs. When she complains, he says, "Get a hobby." Later on, husband discovers wife had an affair. He says that he will never forget the look on his wife's face when she says,
"You told me to get a hobby, so I got one."
I should mention again that they have come a long way since that confrontation. Do you understand the point I am tring to make with that story? I told him so whenever someone accuses you of something, you have to automatic become it. I said if someone accused me of being a slut, whore or prostitute, and I know I'm not one. Does that mean I am going to become one. If someone calls me a thief, drug dealer or con-artist, do I become one just because I've been accused of being one. Of course not.
But a habit of confessing what you guess are the sins of a partner, otherwise called Love Busters, is completely different from the examples you are using.
If you have read the book Love Busters or the short version on this site, you then understand just how different the examples you use and accusing your husband of cheating is in the real world of marriage. There we go with Righteous Indignation taking over so we can forget the boulder in our eye while examining the ones in partner's eyes with a microscope. And in this case, you just THOUGHT there might be a boulder. Love busting. . . I too am not taking responsibility for being where I am. It's the dumb choice of my H that has us where we are today. Why not take responsibility for who you are and the state of the marriage before your husband cheated and more important, your 100% of the 50% of the state of marriage AFTER your husband cheated. Didn't you learn anything? The only person you control is yourself. If you want a happy marriage instead of a miserable living together, then you must change and your husband must change. And how can he change if you won't?
Yes, it was a dumb choice on the part of your husband that got you to where you started down the road to misery or recovery. But it is your own dumb choices that have you stalled out at ground zero and the state of your CURRENT relationship. You chose Righteous Indignation. How is that working for you? Now he wishes he could take it back and he can't. He wishes he could erase it, but he can't. Yep, no reset button and now he is stuck. and so are you, if you let what he did define you.I always tell him when he complains about something I've said, I inform he that he should have thought about all of this before he did what he did. No pitty from me buddy. That's right, you browbeat him good now don't you. And you probably intend to use his affair to control him for the remainder of his life, right? Yea, you'll show him by God. (sarcasm alert)
Please go read what Dr. Harley has to say about forgiveness and retribution and all that stuff, please.
Do you really enjoy living like that? 26, I don't know you. I haven't a clue the state of your marriage before your husband had his affair except for a few clues. Dr. Harley says the seeds of adultery are in all of us. And he teaches how to avoid adultery from infesting our lives and he also teaches how to recover from adultery and have an even better relationship than before that unhappy event. All I have about you is what you post. And what you posted is full of righteous indignation and frankly, emotional abuse that while not on the same level as that which he inflicted on you, is bad enough as it is. Is that what you seek, revenge? Is Righteous Indignation the state you want to be in for the rest of your life, allowing one event to totally control how you do business. I suggest to you that you need to do two things: 1. Go READ and attempt to understand Dr. Harley's Teachings. 2. Resolve to take responsibility for who YOU are and quit blaming your husband for who you are. He has no control over you. Only you have control over you. Own your own stuff. Quit using your husband's affair to dodge your own hidden shame and guilt. Now I got all that by looking at what you said. If you meant something other than what your words said, I am not going to take responsibility for that. I took what you said at FACE value. 26, you have come a ways since you first arrived. Why not continue the journey to happiness. I bet your husband is tired of hunkering down in his chair and absorbing the blows. He might surprise you by willingly taking up the task of learning how to get a real marriage if he thinks the process is safe and not full of landmines. And let me share something else with you. In the example I used above, the lady who said, "I got one," is one of the best on this forum for helping people deal with the trauma of adultery infesting their marriage. She didn't get to that state by allowing what she did to define who she is for the rest of her life. She fixed herself using Harley teachings. Take a look at Mel or Pep or dozens of other BS here who pass out quality advice. I can promise you, they don't allow what happened to define themselves. They changed. And in most cases, they LED their WS to a good place. I want to encourage you to learn and lead. I think you have the horsepower and brains to pull it off or I would NOT have spent the past two hours constructing this post. I think you are worth it. Larry
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26
I want to encourage you to learn and lead. I think you have the horsepower and brains to pull it off or I would NOT have spent the past two hours constructing this post.
I think you are worth it.
Larry Another great post Larry.
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Wow Larry, I don't know about that. Well, I some what agree with some of the things you've said. I do tend to want revenge and want to make him pay. He has accused me of having Righteous Indignation.
However, it seems as if you want to blame all of this on me and I will not take responsibility for what my H did to our life. Yes I am responsible for "me and my actions" and not the actions of my husband. From the day I found out I have continued to be a good wife to him in every since of the word. Things are not as bad as you seem to think they are right now. They are better, we've come a long way since Dday in September of 09.
I have discussed adultry with my husband in the past on several ocassions, reason being is that women seem to flock to him and he is a very friendly person by nature. I always discussed it with him because women sometimes women tend to take his smile the wrong way.
I am hurt and still in shock from what he did. Ok Larry, here's the truth. My wonderful "husband" is also a Pastor! Please don't anyone ask me questions regarding him Pastoring. Now do you understand my frustration! The OW was a newly member in our congregation who would smile in my face and speak to me after every service.
Yes, my H is tired of me fighting unfair and as you said "hunkering down in his chair and absorbing the blows". You know what, sometimes I simply don't care that he is tired. That's what he gets for doing what he's done. He has turned me into another person. I try every single day to forget the A, I try every single day to not even mention it. I can go about 4 or 5 days and be find, then all of a sudden it hits me. How could this man of God do such a hurtful thing to me. Am I a "perfect" wife, no I am not, but I tell you this Larry, on a scale of 1 - 10, he'll tell you I'm about an 8 and so WAS he.
Larry it just seems like you're trying to blame this all on me, and trust me I did my part and I still am trying to bounce back from the images in my head and all the lies from this wonderful man that I married in the mountains 26 years ago.
I thought about leaving him just for peace of mind, thought about moving down South with my college roommate, (I'm sure it's warmer there anyway) buttttttt. I love my husband and I want my marriage to work. I just sometimes think he is getting away with murder and that I have not made him pay enough and YES, I feel that he is in debt to me and should be jumping when I say jump. That may sound aweful, but I finally CONFESSED it.
Larry, let me ask you something, are you the WS or the BS?
"Never get in a bed if your name isn't written on it"
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Hey 26years,
I get you, I really do. I am a BS and my WW rocked my world a little over 10 months ago. The feelings I get from your post are anger, hurt, shock and a need to punish.
These are all normal and okay to feel that way. I am not a "vet" on this board and dont totally adopt all of the concepts presented on this board, but the vast majority of them do work.
I struggled with feeling like I had no role in my wife having an affair. Guess what, I didnt. She own that 100%. I did, however, have a role in the state of our marriage. You ARE NOT responsible for your husbands affair. He has a mouth and could have voiced his needs to you or confided in a brother in the church about his thoughts/desires to have an affair.
If I was in your shoes, I would be devastated. Not only because of the affair, but because he is a pastor. I am a Christian and I NEVER thought this could happen to me. Its like a false sense of security.
I didnt see if you were in therapy or not, but I would seek counsel. Also discuss your feelings with your husband, and in time maybe the anger will diminish. I know you want your husband to feel every bit of pain you are feeling, but that wont change what he did.
I just want you to know I get how you feel. You are going to have to decide if you can forgive this man and move forward. I would just hope that you do everything you can to save your marriage and not let the anger consume you.
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26 I figured that your husband was either a Judge or a Pastor at a decent sized Church. Thank you for sharing. I was hoping you would respond. Larry it just seems like you're trying to blame this all on me, No, no, no! I could do larger words: NO!Far from it. I was attempting to expose an attitude on your part that was NOT helping YOU recover. I want YOU to be happy. I want YOU to be in control of your emotions. I want YOU to focus on rebuilding YOUR life with or without your husband. You have elected to stay with your husband. Okay, now YOU change YOURSELF so YOU become a happier person with your choice. Nobody held a gun to your head. YOU are allowing your husband's sins to control YOU. YOU are allowing you husband's sins to define who YOU are. Put on your big girl panties, to repeat an oft used conundrum. Take charge of YOURSELF. You don't have to hit yourself with his stupid sign, now do you? And you don't have to hit him with it either. Let him hit himself. I bet he can even do a good job of it too. And you stay as far away from the stupid sign as you can. The point is that he has no defenses. And you know it. So long as you keep beating on him, he will not, because he can not, work on a full recovery for himself, he is too busy defending. Until he can focus, he can not be the better person you married. READ DR, HARLEY! I keep saying that, and for good reason. Recovery means change for both of you. Read Dr. Harley, a world class expert on recovery. So long as you keep beating on him, you cannot work on yourself to be the better person HE married. And we both know that one reason you are beating on him is so you won't beat on yourself for your own guilt and shame that this could have ever happened to you. Right 26, you know I wish you well and that what I say is truly for your benefit as a person as I see it. Larry
Last edited by _Larry_; 03/29/10 10:10 AM. Reason: clarify
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Larry
What you had to say here hit home for me
And made a lot of since
YOU are allowing your husband's sins to control YOU. YOU are allowing you husband's sins to define who YOU are. Put on your big girl panties, to repeat an oft used conundrum. Take charge of YOURSELF
And that is what I have been doing
This site has given me a lot of help
Thank you to all here
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Hey Larry, you know what? You so right in what you said, you read me pretty good. I admit that I am ashamed and embarassed that this has happen to me, don't know how and why, but it did. How do I bounce back from this? How do I stop beating him over the head even though he totally deserves it. Sad part is he takes it, but everybody has a breaking point. I bought the book, haven't read it word for word though.
Out of all you said, how do I begin to stop letting his sins define me? My H often tells me to not define him by this A, but how can I not?
Be specific, how do I put on the big girl panties? Easier said then done. Have a lot more I could say but I'm replying on my Iphone and it takes longer to type. Please help me out, I told my H what you said whic is really what he's been telling me. How do I rid myself of the feeling of wantinghim to pay and feel the pain they both made me feel. The OW is feeling it now because she doesn't have her H or mine, she lost both ways. I admit that gives me pleasure. But doesn't seem tone suffering and that's what gets to me.
"Never get in a bed if your name isn't written on it"
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Larry the last part should read "doesn't seem to me that my H is suffering at all and that's the part that gets to me". Have I let him off too easy? Yes I did make the decision to stay, but part of me want to leave then the other part knows I can't ever leave him because of who we are and it would affect too many lives. But mainly because I really do love him and we have built a wonderful life together outside of this A. 26 years is a long time.
"Never get in a bed if your name isn't written on it"
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26 Oh my, a break through. I am so happy for you. I am not just saying that either. I have been doing this off and on for a long time. I started many years ago on a forum where mixed-cultural marriages were discussed. Then five years ago I found this place. Do you know how many people simply don't get it? Sadly, most to one degree or the other, no matter how much effort is put into helping them. It takes me sometimes hours to answer the kind of questions you have asked. Often someone sharper than me jumps in and says what needs to be said. If that happens, I will just agree. I will try. Give me time. Until then, I have a question. Uh, is your husband gonna send me a cookie?  Okay, me bad. Larry
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Larry, I may be a lil slow, but I don't get the cookie joke. Sorry, please explain. I do have a great sense of humor, just ask my kids. Then and again, they may disagree. So fill me in on that one.
"Never get in a bed if your name isn't written on it"
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Well, you would have to read Pep's post during Girl Scout Cookie sale time. She is hooked on Girl Scout cookies. And cookies is her reward system. So I was asking if your husband wanted to send me a cookie by way of a reward for getting your attention.
Another way of looking at it is what Don Rickles used to say when someone annoyed him and made a joke at his expense: "Want a cookie," or something like that.
Getting a cookie is a two edged sword, reward AND joke. It just depends.
Very, very tough assignment you gave me 26, but I asked for it and I am working on it. Promise. . .
Larry
Last edited by _Larry_; 03/29/10 08:22 PM.
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Ok, got it Larry. I figured that's what it meant but wasn't sure, and yes I am awaiting your reply.
"Never get in a bed if your name isn't written on it"
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Ok, well, so long as you understand that everything I will tell you will simply be an expanded or alternative way of explaining something I learned from Dr. Harley.
Maybe I will tell a story, maybe I will use an example or use different words, but I will never, ever, knowingly attempt to get away from what that guy teaches. This is his web site and even if I disagreed with him, which I don't, deviating would be the wrong thing to do.
Larry
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Ooooooooooo......  It just hit me what to do. Watch this space. I think you will like it. Larry
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26 I am going to do this a bit different than I did the last ones to you. I am going to break each step up into stages. This is stage #1 I am going to be spoon feeding you some Harley stuff and I normally don't go that route. Heck, it is free, go read it for yourself. I am making an exception for you and I have a reason for that I may elect to reveal, or not. Here is where I got my previous advice to you: Using resentment as a way to control and punish a spouse
I'm convinced that what's kept the resentment of S.R.'s husband alive for so many years is that he has found it to be an effective way to control and punish her whenever she doesn't do what he wants. Whenever they have a fight, he brings it up, and it causes her such guilt that it gives him a decided advantage in winning the argument.
By this time, I don't believe that her affair is the problem that she thinks it is. Instead, it is an issue that her husband is using to get the upper hand in his relationship with her. It probably shows up the most whenever she has been reluctant to have sex with him. It throws her off balance whenever he mentions it, and makes her feel guilty, wanting to make it up to him somehow. He may also bring it up whenever she is winning in a power struggle he is having with her.
What she describes to me in her letter is abuse, pure and simple. There is no excuse for the way her husband keeps bringing up her moment of weakness she experienced years ago. He is disrespectful and abusive.
I suggest that she look him right in the eye and say to him, "Listen Buster, do you love me? Do you want me to love you? Do you want to spend the rest of your life with me? If the answers to any of those questions is 'yes' you sure are going about it the wrong way. You are not doing things that I admire, you're doing things that I find disgusting!" That was what my comments and  were all about. What I did was explain why the person using resentment was using it to either control someone else or they just were hung up, still in shock and bewildered. Either way, nothing productive was going on. Either way what they were doing was ACTUALLY harming themselves. THAT got your attention and you agreed and asked for more help. Ok, now to stage 2, then a pause, or maybe stage 3 or heck, I dunno. Larry
Last edited by _Larry_; 03/30/10 12:01 AM.
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26 Stage #2 Here we are going to read Dr. Harley again. I will add my comments after I copy his stuff here: I'm in favor of forgiveness in many situations, but this isn't one of them. In the case of infidelity, compensation not only helps the offended spouse overcome the resentment he or she harbors, but the right kind of compensation helps restore the relationship and prevents the painful act from being repeated.
In most cases, an offended spouse would be unwise to forgive the wayward spouse without just compensation. It's like forgiving a friend of the $10,000 he owes you, when it's actually in the friend's best interest to pay you in full because it would teach him how to be more responsible with money.
As it turns out, in every affair there is a way to adequately compensate the offended spouse that is good for the offender and good for the marriage. At first, the offended spouse may not want to be compensated. He or she may try to get as far away from the offender as possible to avoid further pain. But if the spouse asks for forgiveness along with a willingness to compensate, the offended spouse is usually willing to entertain the proposal.
So let's talk about just compensation. What could the offending spouse possibly do to compensate for an affair? After all, it's probably the most painful experiences anyone could ever put his or her spouse through. Now, I have an assignment for you. Please go to the following link and read the entire post from Dr. Harley. compensation!You might also want to focus a bit on resentment as a sort of remedial deal. Here it is: Resentment!Now to Stage #3. Larry
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