OK Fred, where do I go from here?
Please help me!

(My questions above)

I'm not sure I'm the best one to give advice, Chris. You've already been given advice by some of the best.

But since you asked...

Take a deep breath.

As I recall (I'm sorry, but this is the problem with so many threads -- it's tough to track them all), you came here because you wanted advice on building a stronger marriage with your military husband. You had suffered some health issues and he was somewhat abusive, distant and you were unhappy with the state of your marriage. Am I right so far?

Now comes evidence that he has engaged in some inappropriate behavior, and this has made the hairs on the back of your neck stick up. Am I still on track?

Your reaction to this suggestion of something more sinister than just a "faded" marriage has resulted in you having a natural resistant reaction to being advised to snoop, and an incident of questionable behavior on your own part. Still correct?

Here is my layman's diagnosis: You have now entered the "fog zone" of the (possibly) betrayed spouse. Some people have said FOG is an acronym for Fear, Obligation and Guilt. All I know from my own experience is that when the FOG rolls in, we are not even aware that some of our logic and common sense flies out the window.

So here is my advice: Let the veterans here guide you. I speak from experience. When I arrived here, I *knew* my wife was having an affair -- she had admitted it to me! And still I was so flustered and flummoxed that had I not been told to "take a breath, read the MB concepts and listen to the veterans," I have no idea what I may have done.

Every step of the way the angels here sat on my shoulder. If you read my story, you will see that I was posting here every few minutes as the alien who had once been my wife was packing up and leaving. I did not know this woman, and fear, uncertainty, doubt, amazement, disappointment and wonder were ruling my head. The people here were my "silent support group," and "held my hand" during the entire time. I am grateful that the saner, wiser and compassionate people were here for me then, as I am now.

So let them help. MelodyLane is one of the best, and she has been quite active on your story, which is a good thing. Let her help! There are quite a few others, and my suggestion is that before you argue with them, think twice about what they are suggesting and why. (I don't have better word for "argue" right now, although that's not quite what I meant. But I sense a lot of resistance from you -- which I too, felt at first -- and that is your worst enemy right now!).

Thanks Fred.

I have never seen the word "boundaries" used in this way before coming to this site, but I agree with this.

I knew how affairs start years before I met Prisca. I thought everyone knew this. I thought everyone knew that a good married man would not talk to a woman alone in a way that - in Marriage Builders lingo - meets emotional needs.

It seems to me that all you have to do to know this is watch two or three random movies. In that time, you will have seen at least one affair, probably more than one. And while movies are not realistic, they tend to depict the beginnings of affairs somewhat realistically, since affairs are built on fantasy anyway. You see the married man and the other woman at the office, he tells her about his problems, and bingo! Adultery!

Why doesn't everyone know this? I'm still mystified.

Some people say "I'd never have an affair" and fall prey to them. I always said "I'd never commit adultery" and what I meant was "I wouldn't talk about anything personal with a woman not my wife, I wouldn't give or receive even casual affection to a woman not my wife, I wouldn't participate in recreational activities with a woman not my wife without my wife present, and I wouldn't even look at a woman not my wife in a sexual manner."

Doesn't everyone know this?

What's wrong with the world appears to be the fact that people think you have to come here to learn this. We need to change the definition of "normal."

Ditto.

"Normal" is a setting on a washing machine.

I agree.


I think all members/posters are different. There are some, like me, who bounce around a lot. There are others who tend to stick to one forum. Just because you have an onset of waywardism posted to page N of a 30-page thread in MB101 doesn't mean somebody who primarily lives in SAA is going to find it.


I agree.


blah blah blah justify justify

From the SAA thread:

Bit,

how does posting about the incident on the MB forum but not on the SAA room equate to "hiding?"

It was obviously a newbie mistake on my part to think that people visit multiple rooms on the MB forum...Oh wait - [b]you're[b] here...so maybe it wasn't such a silly assumption after all.

I feel that at this point you're jumping onto the dogpile.

Additional 2X4ing is not required. I need some solid advice now.

Thanks.

Today is a different day. Anyone can learn if they are willing to.

Is there a reason you're not referring to me saying TODAY that I will come clean to my H about it?

The title of this thread is "Any and All Comments Welcome"

That's what I saw too. Maybe it should be retitled to "Chris-good-Mr-Chris-bad Comments Welcome?"

((slapping forehead))

LOL

Ok...

I like you bit. Really.

Do you have any instructions for me?

My dearest OH,


Would you stop please?

I messed up and I am trying to fix it now.

All right, let me tell you a story about boundaries and why they're so important. I think this is the longest post I've put on MB so bear with me.

I was raised in a German immigrant family. My dad was an army officer. I had a very duty-honor-country upbringing. I also went to an all-male high school - again, more of the 'I will not lie cheat or steal, nor tolerate those who do' type honor code. That was me.

My parents had been building me up for years on the value of an education. Through them, I believed that a four-year engineering degree would pretty much gaurantee me a job. They also cautioned me several times about women throwing themselves at college-educated career men. Being (at the time) a normal healthy 20-year old, my only thought was 'bring it on!'.

So I graduated in '91, right into the recession. I had no relevant work experience because I'd been taking heavy course loads. I wasn't getting the time of day on the job front; everything at that time required 2 years of experience, no entry level positions. It took me 9 months to find a job. I felt ripped off. Things with women were no better; I was getting nowhere in spite of being in good shape and reasonably good looking. Again I felt ripped off (read: entitled).

Late in '92 I made some friends and finally got a social life going (after graduation I had moved to Dallas). There was a couple I hung out with. I was strongly attracted to the wife (in retrospect she was average looking) but didn't act on it: this was my friend's wife, after all.

A few weeks go by and she starts calling me at work or at home, just to chat. I don't think anything of it. We're friends, after all, and it's not like I'm trying to have an affair with her or anything.

Then one night she tells me she thinks of me when she masturbates and tries to get me to have phone sex with her. I freaked out, ended the conversation, and strugged for a couple days with what to do. I eventually told her husband everything.

He thanked me for being such a good friend, and then told me "If you sleep with my wife, it's okay, but just tell me so I don't feel like a fool". I was completely blown away by this. This couldn't - wouldn't - happen! Sleeping with a friend's wife was so far from who I was that my brain couldn't wrap around it. I gave him every assurance that it could never happen, and I believed every word I said.

Things resumed as before. She kept calling me but never mentioned sex. I think my outing her to her husband made me more attractive in her eyes. More unattainable...harder to get...I don't know. Then her husband had to go away for a weekend, and asked me to keep an eye on her and the kids. No problem.

So I go over, having no ulterior motives. I'm an honorable guy and this is my friend's wife. We listen to some music and watch a movie. She sits close to me on the couch. No big deal.

She starts cuddling up to me on the couch. I hadn't been with a woman in over a year and am enjoying the closeness, and it's not like I'm sleeping with her or anything.

We start making out. It's not like I'm sleeping with her. We can stop any time I want. I can leave any time I want. It's under control.

You can see where this went. The PA lasted for four months, plus a 'goodbye' encounter three months later. The EA went on for another six months. I thought I was special somehow; as it turned out I was OM3. I actually moved 600 miles away because I couldn't stand being in the same city as her - and this was the DFW area, mind you, and all my family was there. It took me a year after that to get my head screwed on straight, including a visit from the karma minivan.

My whole point is that if I'd had good boundaries - and enforced them - this never would have happened. I'm sure there would have been an OM3, but it wouldn't have been me, which is all I can really control. A good boundary would have been to not allow myself to be alone with a married woman at any time for any reason. A better boundary might have been to not have personal conversations with married women. I keep both these boundaries in place today - partially to avoid creating an environment for an EA/PA to take root, and partially to avoid any perception of impropriety. Some around here use the term 'extraordinary precautions'.

How does this relate to you? Well, you're not getting your emotional needs met by your husband, and are vulnerable to getting them met by someone else - whether you intend to or not. The solution is to not put yourself in that position in the first place by practicing good boundaries (or extraordinary precautions, if you prefer).

So: what do you think are some good precautions you can take to protect yourself from getting your EN's met by someone who is not your husband?

Chris,

You've been on this forum for just over 30 days now. You've learned alot in that short amount of time.

Would you be willing to write down what YOUR plan is for the next 30 days.

Include things like;
Do you plan to save your M even if there is infidelity
Will you seperate and what will that look like to you
Will I go into a Plan B if necessary
What all you're going to do regarding snooping and how
What you're going to do regarding meeting H's EN's
How you plan to handle YOUR LB's and H's LB's
What you're going to do regarding counseling/coaching
Etc.

MB isn't meant to be like putting a carrot on a stick out in front of a Donkey in order to steer the cart where we want it to go..... If you just chase carrots like the Donkey, you'll be doing no more than allowing your stomach(emotions) to control your thinking. Having a plan written out places you back in the drivers seat instead of being the one chasing the carrots.

We are here to help you think about what you're learning and give you suggestions that will help you get where you want to go.

Bit,

Wow...thanks for sharing that.


Thinking about your question, my H was meeting these ENs before he threatened to divorce me and he continued meeting them immediately after he threatened a divorce and prior to my implementation of MB:
+Financial Support
+Domestic Support
+Family Commitment

After my implementation fo MB my H began to meet three more of my ENs, so now this is the list:
+Conversation (this one is not being met "fully" though)
+Affection
+Sexual Fulfillment
+Financial Support
+Domestic Support
+Family Commitment

The ENs I do not feel are being met are:
+Recreational Companionship (since I am still recovering physically, this is understandable. Also he has service related back pain and has gained a lot of weight)
+Honesty and Openness
+Physical Attractiveness (He has gained a lot of weight.)
+Admiration

I am in the Plan A phase where we give without the expectation of "getting"...With my physical appearance (even with crutches and a cast), I get admiration from men who are not my H regularly.

So...What can I do to make sure a person of the opposite sex who is not my H meets these?

I could avoid seeking out and being alone with any persons of the opposite sex and try to ignore the "Admiration" from outside parties.

What do you think?

Thanks so much tst!

I will think about my direction and use your questions as a start.

It's not really how many of your ENs he is meeting (though I'm sure it's nice if our spouses met ALL of our ENs equally and fully).

You listed your ENs, but what's the order of them? Have you filled out the ENQ? If not, go print it out and fill it out. It's a great exercise for you...even if he doesn't fill it out (yet).

Then tell us if he's meeting your top ENs and how many of your intimate ENs he is meeting.

OH is right. Take the ENQ if you haven't already, and focus on the top 5. For my wife and I, there's the top 5 and then there's everything else.



Do you see how sitting in a coffee shop waiting for guys to hit on you and strike up a conversation is meeting two of your emotional needs? Can you see where this gets dangerous and what a slippery slope it can be?

- "I'm just talking to these guys at the coffee shop. It's not like I'm going home with them. H doesn't talk to me anyway."
- "This one guy gave me his phone number today. Nice to know that *someone* still thinks I'm hot. I'll never call him though."
- "H is being a jerk again. I called the coffee shop guy just to have someone to talk to."
- "Coffee shop guy invited me to lunch! I think I'll go, it's so refreshing to talk to someone who thinks I'm interesting."

You may think this is drawing a line from a single point, or making a mountain out of a mole hill, but if you read around here long enough you'll see the pattern emerge.

For starters I'd keep the wedding ring on. You're not available so don't act like you're on the market.

Look for the recreational companionship questionnaire elsewhere on this site. Fill it out for yourself, and if H won't fill it out then fill it out with what you think his answers might be. There is a ton of stuff you can do that doesn't require mobility; having a list to look at helps. My wife and I both have RC in our top 5 and have made a big effort to get out and do something together - no kids - for 4-6 hours every weekend. You'd be surprised how fast those LB deposits add up!