Welcome aboard, papasita! Good to see you here.

Just to clarify - no one was resisting mama personally. Mama resisted the advice she was being given.

Have you considered starting your own thread? Tell us your story.

Yay! I'm so glad you're on board Papasita. Please do start a thread. I promise, this program can give you the best relationship with Mamasita possible. There is a lot of information here and it's overwhelming. But the people here can help guide you through those steps you need to take.

I know I'm pullin' for you guys.

Oh I am considering it(starting my own thread), I am certain I will. However, my time today is VERY limited. With her on jury duty, spring break for the kids, and a nice full workload... I just dont feel I have the time today. I will be making the time, no hurry really. We have been lurking on MB for like 2+ years.

I did feel a sense of urgency about getting myself on here, and saying a little to try and defuse the anger. I feel like I can really make a big differnce with a few words here, to help bring the peace. Really it seems like me coming on here and saying stuff will mean a lot to her, and perhaps some of the anger was based on my lack of participation in this, or even participating by having her have to post what I said etc.

I think there is a bit of resistance here having to do with unconventional marriages, you guys take a hard line on this and its hard to swallow as an "outsider". Another thing is there is some jealousy from within mama and I's relationship toward married couples, they have something we dont... and we worked hard for what we have, but dont get the benefit of the doubt that someone who got married has. Its all about perceptions, and I can tell you that it really does feel like resistance coming in on it.

I can say from experience that this jealousy has affected us. Friends would get married, and we would not attend. My brother, her sisters etc.. all married, and yet all the while we were struggling with this lack of a relationship, and yet all the responsibility of having a family etc. It really was uncomfortable in almost every one of the cases where friends and family would get married, like a spotlight was turned on in a spot we were really uncomfortable having it lit up.

We should have gotten married years ago. I certainly regret that it has taken so much hardship and time to come to this point where I am now. Its easy to tell someone not to regret, but some of the hardest things to let go of are regrets of things that you did not do. It seems easier to let go of things that are regrettable, and yet happened. Really in the end I regret both the things I did, and the things I didnt do, and I only have the power to change the way I do things now. So I am going to let the rest slide, and focus on how I can make things right, right now.

Papasita, while maybe you guys should have gotten married years ago, I don't believe the solution is necessarily to jump up and get married now. Maybe I am a little different in that respect.

If your computer has a problem on its hard drive, with the programs that run the basic computer ("operating system"), then you can try installing new programs to fix it, but as long as the operating system itself on the hard drive is flawed, you will continue to get bad results.

What I am saying is that in yours and your wife's "hard drive" (your minds) there are some ideas that constitute "bugs in the operating system." The reason your lives are not going exactly the way you want them to is because of these bugs. You're going to have to learn to think in a different way about a number of things. Until then, installing a new "program" (marriage, or a marriage license) will still be problematic.

For the sake of you, your wife, and your kids, I hope you will commit to studying these principles. Will you commit to reading the book your wife has ordered, when it comes in?

The jealousy I was talking about, was ours(or at least mine) toward other married people. I dont think anyone would be jealous of what we have, we love each other and have a wonder life together, but it has been hard.

Why not attend marriages? Well, the one we went to we fought horribly, the first really bad fight almost. After that, we always find some excuse to be too busy. But, I will admit it runs deeper than just too busy, that there was trepidation and real fear of running into another emotionally charged situation. Although, we did attend one friends wedding, and worse yet.. thats where the second affair started, or at least intensified(it was a really bad time)... more on this later when I start my own thread. Lets just settle on, weddings historically have been very stressful.

On the uncomfortableness. This is really hard to put a finger on, and really requires more thought and discusion. There is the things that happened during the few weddings we went to, and those really are painful and never got sorted out. Both mama and I have over the years developed a pattern of letting things go without sorting them out. This is one of those things that are rather wrapped up in that process.

I think my posts have already shown I have the interest to make the time to make things happen.

The biggest hurdle I see is figuring out a way to find a way to sort out all the sordid details, I have not been forthcoming with my story, how I let her down.. the 2 affairs, and several other flirting type affairs as well... all years back now, but still so relevant for her. I need to find a way to open up. I am afraid to say much most times, I do not want it to get used against me. In the end, that makes it seem like I am protecting a secret for the sake of the secret. I dont want them anymore, but I am afraid they will come back to hurt me more than they already have.

Once she has the story, we can move forward or not... but this sitting in limbo is killing us both.

I already said I am going to read this book. I will reiterate it so you know for a fact that I am.

I dont plan on just getting married to try and fix this. I dont think it would work like that. Its going to take some real work just to get to the point where I think we are ready for marriage. This is not going to stop me from asking her, and telling her that that is my goal. I want her to know that I want that.

It's GREAT that you recognize this. Mamasita has been offended and trust me, it is no one's intention to do that to anyone who comes here honestly seeking help. As you and mamasita have both seen now, what we won't do is coddle someone around the truth. How would that be helpful and spark any action at all?

I agree you two shouldn't jump into marriage right away just for marriage sake alone. At this point you guys have done it all backwards, but that doesn't mean you can't end up with a happy and promising marriage. Coming to MB may have just saved this sinking ship.

Exactly what I was thinking, markos.

The fact that you guys are not married, papasita and mamasita, is not the CAUSE of your problems. It is an INDICATOR of the underlying belief system. That belief system is the cause of your problems. Getting married will not fix this. Changing your underlying belief system will fix this.

That is so easy to say, and so very difficult to do.
The rewards are immeasurable.
I think you have a lot going for you and I encourage you to put forth the effort.

I think the Buyer/Renter/Freeloader book is a great suggestion. I personally have to fight being a renter. It's not "in my nature" to be a buyer (if there is such a thing -- maybe I just need more practice and conscious effort).

If you can do it, I think a Marriage Builders weekend would be wonderful for you guys. You could learn all the terminology, the tools, spend time together away from kids, work, housework, etc. just focusing on each other. When you get back you have unlimited access to the Harleys via a private forum here.

With THAT under your belt, you'll be equipped and prepared to get married. And I suspect it will be a very fine one.

Good insights on your part, papa.

Of course you fear her anger, her using this against you, and so forth. That's natural.

However, being afraid of something doesn't mean we don't do what we know is right. You tell her everything with honesty because it is the right thing to do. Not because it is the comfortable thing to do.

I find what works for me is frequently consciously considering and reflecting upon my actions. I ask myself: Am I living my life with integrity? If I am, good. And if not, I fix it. I own that.

You own your integrity. You own the responsibility of being open and honest with mamasita. And she'll be angry, and hurt, and you have to work through that with her. You have to see the hurt and the tears. You have to hear the anger. And you have to sit there, solid, patient, and honest while she deals with the information at hand.

You do NOT have to put up with angry outbursts, wild accusations, or similar love busters. Mama owns that. She owns controlling her own behavior and not love busting you. She has to explain to you that she is hurt, or angry.

Be honest. Don't "protect her" from the truth. That is insulting, inequitable, and incredibly painful.

I can recall a LOT of marriages here at MB that have failed due to continued dishonesty, trickle-truth, information hoarding, and similar attempts to "protect" a spouse. I can't recall any of them failing to thrive if the Harley Principles were put in place.

My husband sometimes has trouble opening up to me and telling me things he thinks I don't want to hear. Admittedly, I was not as open to his opinions early in our marriage as I should have been and shut him down a lot. But this tendency of his hurts us - there is no infidelity in our situation but it is still damaging. In this situation it is imperative that you are open and honest with anything Mamasita wants to hear in regards to your infidelity - it's how she will truly heal and be able to forgive you (does someone have a copy of that letter- Joseph's Letter, I think Here is Joseph's Letter , It's also been bumped for you Papa, thanks Larry ).

I know it is so hard to open up because there is so much pain involved and you hurt Mamasita and you don't want to keep on doing it. But she is going to hurt, you cannot change that, Papasita. It is a consequence of your actions. This is like peeling off the band-aid. You all have been sllloooowwwwlllly tearing it off over these past few years and the wound is gonna fester. That band-aid has got to go so your relationship can heal.

Carrying the weight of those secrets isn't helping you any either. They're a weight dragging you down.

I know that once I realized what DH was holding things back it hurt me. It made me feel a bit like a tyrant - I want my husband to feel comfortable telling me things about him. But I didn't make it safe for him to be open with me. I have had to work hard to not steamroll over him. To not criticize the information he gives me.

That is something Mammasita can do. Help create a safe environment for you to be open. Throwing it back in Papasita's face isn't going to be productive towards moving forward - it's just going to make him want to clam up.

Some have recommended limiting infidelity talk to a specific time each week. For a limited time. Mamasita could have written questions and you answer them as completely as possible and then when time is up you STOP. Don't discuss it again until the same bat-time at the same bat-channel the next week. If Mama thinks of something during the week, write it down and save it for your scheduled time.

Oh and I agree - don't rush out and get married tomorrow. Fix and strengthen relationship. You guys can do it!!!

thank-you all for supporting my spouse on here. we so need the help and youre advice was spot on.

sorry i got so offended. i felt like no one was actually hearing me and was actually justifying his affairs because we were not married. i just did not see so much resistance coming when i first posted here. i thought because i considered myself married, that was good enough. now i see, i was hurting the person i love. i did not realize he did not feel the same way as me in that.

that is why radical honesty is so important. a lot of assumptions i made about our relationship and my spouses feeling were wrong. we need to be honest about us to eachother.
thank-you for trying to express how important it is to me to have the whole truth.

you are my favorite marriagebuilding site.

Keeping it real, mama. But you're welcome.

bah
but i am exceedingly grateful and hopeful. i'm glad he has decided tp join me on the road to a better relationship and hopefully marriage.

You two live in Minnesota?

You need to go to the next MB weekend in May.

we have not so much money. we are trying(ironically) to buy a house.

maybe tho. our son turns ten in may.

What does this sort of thing cost?

I got it figured out, seems a little out of what we are going to be able to afford. Starting with a few books, picked up the emotional needs one as well.

I also went through and printed the first couple questioners one copy for each of us. Going to start going through these, hopefully this format will allow good starting points for talking out all this history.

Thanks again everyone.

You can afford a house but not MB weekend?

I'd strongly advise buying the house after the marriage is put together well. You've waited this long. How long does $1700 delay it?


Hey, that's great! First step toward being a good husband!!

At this point the house is not just about a marriage. Really this is a home for our children. I admit, the MB Weekend is not that far out of reach cost wise. But, it certainly is going to merit a lot of discussion and thought. I think some of the worksheets we are going through, specifically the material needs one, will help us start to be able to prioritize some of this together.

We are discussing the MB weekend, and that is good to. I think that it may be able to wait until later in the year. I would like to start a savings account specifically for the MB weekend, or something along those lines where when we can afford it, we will do it. It should be able to benefit us 6-9 months from now, as these problems have been years in the making.

Now we ordered the Surviving an Affair one as well. This was a book that we should have ordered ages ago. All of these books are affordable, $8 used. You have to understand, our budget is money limited, but we CAN spend time.

Really all of these books, the worksheets, talking about it and really spending the time, is what we need to do. We are starting to do this, and I feel like it will help.