Chris, is this conversational talk? Fun stuff? If so, may I suggest working with icebreaker-type topics? I don't know what you already know about him, but if there's some gaps in stuff ask about things like his favorite subjects from school, or favorite teachers; what was his first job and what memories does he have of it; if he had a year to do whatever (paid!), what would he do; what would he like to be remembered for (eulogy-type stuff).

in the questionnaires section on the website, there's a personal history questionnaire. I was reading through it the other day, thinking that many of the things on it would be great conversation topics.

We had a good time!

I checked out the conversation article (Thx for the link!) and tried to adhere to the suggestions.

No relationship talk: investigate, inform , and understand.

Our child was with one of his friends & we did a movie where my H was very affectionate and dinner where we gabbed and gabbed about any & everything.

It was really nice.

UA time tonight was about 3 hours instead of the planned 30 minutes.

Score!

Just an update...

Our 30 minutes of UA time seems to be translating into more UA time...apparently, if you enjoy UA time it replicates / reproduces itself. Whodathunkit. Oddly enough, some of my feelings for my H are beginning to return.

One thing I tasked myself with is to do my part to help us address his AOs - which are a big LB for me....they really get in the way of my feelings of love. I am doing my part by not accepting it and changing the way I react to it. I used to react with fear, running away, or giving in to keep the peace. Now, what I am supposed to do is:

+Ask him to stop speaking to me that way.
+Clearly state the AO is disresepctful and demeaning
+Offer to continue the discussion at a time when we are able to communicate respectfully

With my H, denial of the AO and attempts at gaslighting comes into play at times... in those cases my reaction will need to include not rewarding the gaslighting. Saying


Followed by the offer to talk more about the topic later, when we are both able to communicate respectfully.

No matter what, I can't ramble or "overexplain" my position - I need to keep my responses as brief and unemotional as possible.

Does anyone have any suggestions about how to tighten this up or is this OK?

Chris, do you find it helpful to address AOs when he is not angry?

I would like to address this...setting boundaries when he is in the midst of an AO has not been very successful for me.

Chris's Plan

For the next 30 days,
+ I plan to avoid the "grass is greener" syndrome (talk about giving up and muse about dating as a newly divorced woman when I get discouraged), wear my wedding ring at all times, and not permit members of the opposite sex to meet any of my ENs.
+ I plan to eliminate the LBs I am doing on my H & meet my H's ENs. I also plan to share with my H info about the LBs I feel he is doing towards me and my own ENs. To that end, we are completing the LBs & ENs Questionnaires and we're supposed to exchage them & then talk about them later this week. I will use the info from that process + what I observe in our interactions to accomplish this goal.
+ I am also planning on doing my part to help us stop his AOs - which are a big source of unhappiness for me... My part is not accepting / rewarding the AOs and adhering to my own boundaries for that. (I described this in the post above.)

At the end of this period, I would like to introduce the idea of MB Marriage Coaching & the MB Weekend in May.

Do you plan to save your M even if there is infidelity
Yes, I plan to use Plan A / Plan B per the guidance provided to folks in SAA.

Will you seperate and what will that look like to you
Yes. The SAA folks say Plan B will not work without separation. It will be scary and hard - but I'll do it.

Our child and I will remain in the family house. The same day as EXPOSURE (family and friends...work too, if the OW is a co-worker.) he'll come home to discover the locks have been changed + many of his belongings (the essentials) placed neatly in bags on the porch along with the note which describes the reasons for and the conditions to end the separation: (You are cheating / unfaithful and I have proof, Cease contact w/ OW, agree to MB Coaching, etc etc). The code to the garage will be changed and he will be unable to have access to his motorcycle. Prior to that, I'll see a lawyer to determine what support he is REQUIRED to provide, visitation / custody during the separation, etc.

Ideally, we will take turns taking our child to cub scout meetings which are once a week and he'll have one day with him on the weekend...either Saturday or Sunday depending upon my plans. During that weekend day, at least half of our child's weekend homework assignments will need to be completed (to avoid the "fun parent" or "favorite parent" syndrome) and cub scout projects must be completed as well.

Need to think about the intermediary to have communications between us, so there's no direct contact.

What all you're going to do regarding snooping and how
Continued monitoring of the cell phone activity via the online bill. SIM Card Reader to gain access to deleted texts, Keylogger for PC.

What you're going to do regarding counseling/coaching
I want us to attend the upcoming May MB Weekend and have Coaching sessions with Dr SW Harley.

No ma'am. I find that for my H, addressing briefly but strongly it while it's in the beginning stages works best.

Talking about it when it isn't happening can be very nice sometimes (sometimes in the past, it has led to another AO); however, all of the reasonable reasoning and assurances seem to fly out of the window when the anger comes up IRL.

The principles behind Pavlov's Dog experiments comes to mind. And, remember, MB is actions based - not "talking" or "heart to heart" based. Dr. H himself in the Love Busters book writes something to the effect that - no amount of talking is going to change the dynamics of your M. Talking didn't get you where you are today.

I believe him. He is a smart man

OH, I think I said this over on your thread but will repeat here.

I don't believe setting a boundary is something you necessarily TALK about. That is more like an ultimatum, and is trying to control another person. The boundary is not about THEM. It's about ME protecting myself. It's an action I take.

When I set boundaries with my parents or inlaws, for example, I don't go and advertise that I'm making a change. For one thing, I'm not perfect, and they might use the first opportunity I slip to say, "See, you didn't really mean it." Also, stating it out loud might be very hurtful to them. I recently realized that having intimate conversations with my mother-in-law was not good for me, because I would eventually end up complaining about my husband, and then she would call him at some point and start giving him a guilt trip about her perception of what he is or isn't doing. All because I was just venting to her! Well, I set a boundary. I was no longer going to vent to her anymore. Rather than straight up tell her this (which would have resulted in God knows what kind of reaction), I simply stopped having intimate conversations with her. I kept my conversations light and quick. Sometimes I slipped and complained, but no big deal because SHE didn't know it was a slip.

Same with my husband's AO. I have set a boundary against cursing at me. Which means that instead of having a discussion about it beforehand when things are calm, I have simply made a decision not to tolerate it and either ask him to stop or tell him that I'm removing myself from hearing it. I don't do it ALL the time. But it's not about him crossing my boundary, because that would be me controlling him. He can attempt to cross my boundary all he wants. It's about me enforcing it. It's all about me. It has nothing to do with him. Maybe one day we won't need that boundary anymore. Maybe one day he will stop AO. I've found that with my husband it comes and goes. The boundary is there regardless, and only I have the power to enforce it.

OK, have I beaten a dead horse?

Another cookie please?

Sorry - I took a bite.

Chris, are you asking us how to help you remain with an abusive man? I cannot help you with that.

According to Dr H in the Love Busters Book, many of us are abusive. DJs, SDs, and AOs are all defined as abusive ways to get what we want from our spouse.

Using your logic, most of our spouses should not stay with us.

Chris,

In short, NO!!!!!!!

Why would you think this?

I have more to post on this question, but I need you to answer my question first, please.....

Not2fun

I like your plan, Chris.

LA

It occurred to me after he described the compliment from his co-worker the way he did....like it wasn't exactly a good thing. Realizing - that this was totally my perception...

Thanks LA.

In your opinion, is there a way I can tighten up the actions for my part of working on the AOs?

Good plan A, Chris. I like how you wrote it down and had me write mine down.

Chris, about the kid-out-of-school thing...I just want to make sure I understand, did your H mean that he would be staying home with the child, or did he make a declaration of what would happen and what you would be required to do? Or was your part of it inferred, by you, perhaps erroneously?

My response to stuff like this has been, "Great! I'm so glad you can take care of that!" when it's something that H declares individually that he expects me to fulfill. Like our 8yo getting into scouting. He said he thought it would be a great idea to put him in scouts. I said I agreed, so glad he was going to put in the time for that to happen! He said, uh, no, he meant for me to do it. I said, "So sorry. Can't. Tried it with ds13, it was horrid trying to do all those activities with three other kids attached, can't do it by myself, thanks anyway!"

I've found that the best way to handle unilateral decisions is to NOT make them joint. Just a pat on the back and an "Enjoy!" goes a long way to making them think, huh? What did I do??? lol.

CW, I don't want to dwell on the past; however....let's just say that H has a habit of using "I" statements on "we" issues and then I had to come along for the ride.

and.... I will say that I am not sure if he would have tried to pull the same okey doke on me had I not said




Part of my frustration (fuming) was memory recall on that shortcoming for our M as well as me (in the past) not addressing it + feeling the fear / pressure to address it now with the MB tools. I had to tell myself to stop & take a breath + deal with it as it stands NOW. Let go of the past. Use the new language as much as i could to address this.



A co-worker's live in boyfriend did that to her with their son. He signed the son up for basketball and then called her at the office to inform her that she'd be coaching. She was pissed, but in the end she totally gave in.

I think I drove up realy close to how you handled it with the sarcastic comment I made above - LOL! The way I feel about that method is summed up with a funny thing someone shared on the forum recently:
Who's winning in your marriage?"


BUT - I think what I did in the end set the groundwork for more "we" and I'd liek to continue laying that groundwork whenever I have the opportunity.

Does that make things more clear, CW?

Chris, hon, I see this is a sore spot. I know I've written about similar stuff in my thread before, projecting that what happened in the past was what was happening today, because in the moment I forgot that I get to be new every day. I practice saying, "let me think on that and get back to you." I know it could at first look like moms kind of do the veto and all that, but I don't mean it like that, I just mean sometimes it takes a minute or two to realize what more information we need in order to find the POJA. With practice I can be patient and give myself a minute.

Chris, I don't think LG meant what you are thinking he meant. I may be wrong but from here it's like he was saying, there are other ways to look at this, too. Here, let me give you an example of what it *could* have been. Not that he was telling you that this is what you did do. We're here for feedback, right? If LG took what you said a certain way, it's possible that your H can take things a similar way, too. But it's not like the final verdict or something, just folks reasoning through together.

NED,

So do I and I admitted to it many many times here in this forum and in the conversation which I was blasted for sharing. I am actually in IC for it.

But wait - maybe we're not talking about the same sore spot.


Wow...You think that what I think LG meant was not what he actually meant? It's possible, but I think that the fact you said this to me speaks very loudly to the idea that he came off in a very nasty way. I can't find any examples of him coming off to anyone else like that so perhaps I am just a damaged individual who MB probably will not help anyway (((shoulder shrug))).































Errr...I'm thinking NOT.

This person is a vet, and I have noticed that "coming on strong" from vets is not uncommon here. I think you mentioned early on about some of the voices here being so strong as to the point of being offensive (or maybe it was Think who said it). we are in cyberspace so it's so easy to misinterpret things. Anyway, I'm not going to take it personally. In general this is a great place, and I am all for 2 X 4ing and O&H..I love to get help + support...unfortunately LG's comments did not help or support me. Among the other nosensical nonsense which was said, he implied that my problems were not as "deep" as OH's. I am not into Victim Olympics but that alone was 100% awful. Everyone's problems cause them real and very personal pain and our individual problems are the biggest thing in our world. No one called him on that or on his misreading of certain key points....I am guessing because he's a vet. I know I know - we gots ta respect the vets. LG also seems to "know" that my H is wayward. Since I have yet to find any evidence, I am wondering where he got his crystal ball so I can order one. Again, no one said a word.

You know what though? It's OK.

I really don't have to care what someone else thinks of me do I? It says right @ the top of the forum that this forum is a PEER environment. So, he is really no better than me. What made me LOL is him saying how I spoke to him in the thread means that I must be doing even worse IRL. I could say the same thing about him. EASILY.

Anyway... I've been lucky so far - Although LG has read my story (as he claims) he hasn't "felt the need to respond" to my posts before yesterday & hopefully his feelings continue on that front. If not, I can always use the ignore function.