I'm just buried under emotional dishonesty, here. She conceals her feelings about yesterday, and on top of that, when I asked her yesterday if she would feel okay letting me talk on this thread for a day or so without her reading it, she said okay ... but she didn't really mean it.

So today I hear that I'm "hiding" the thread from her.

I corrected that immediately, and she's been told she's welcome to come read anything.

My only hope was to get the chance to talk things out here first before I went and did something stupid, and to do so hopefully in a way where if I said something with a disrespectful judgment or other love buster in it, you guys could point it out to me before I said it so it wouldn't go all the way to her.

The POJA is never going to work as long as my wife continues to be dishonest about how she really feels. And as long as that happens, my account in her love bank will continue to suffer these withdrawals.

I am not ignoring her. I'm just here. When I think of something to say to her, I say it; when she emails me, I respond when I get it. There's no ignoring going on at all.


Neither do I.

Markos, I feel for you but here's the deal. IMVHO a lot of times "emotional dishonesty" or "shutting down" are learned behaviours. You cannot control that. You can't flip a switch and have her all of a sudden be open and honest with you. One reason may very well be the way you've reacted in the past to things along with several other factors. So what is it that's in your power to do? Continually, constistantly, and always provide safety in your communication to assist in her learning a new way.

If the boards are an issue, pick a couple of men and get their e-mail address for "emergency" situations.

And here's the other thing. Read through your thread for like the past week. Like 2 days ago you were ready to save the world and flying high, then BOOM, "it's never going to work".... WOW. C'mon y'all ain't been doin the deal but for a minute. Sure our goal is to get to a place where the peeks and valleys are further apart and not so low but dude you have got to have some stability. Have your baseline above the middle and don't let go down below that. You control you.....

Oh and PS, wbill70@yahoo.com if you ever want to hit it up.

Markos: Breathe, man, breathe!



She doesn't feel SAFE yet. It's going to take TIME and CONSISTENCY. Like others have said, it will be two steps forward, one step back. You're raring to go to 'fix' things. She wants them fixed too but she has learned a lot of safety mechanisms to protect herself from being hurt. Let the lunch thing go.

DH and I were talking last night, about your situation and about our early relationship and how difficult it can be to learn to communicate. Often what you say isn't really what you MEAN. What the other person hears isn't what you're meaning to say. It's so much more difficult when emotions are involved. It's even harder when painful memories of past hurts are involved. It is a learning process you and she will have to undergo - to learn HOW to talk to one another.

I have noticed that when things are good in our house it's because DH and I are communicating well. We know each other and have learned what is going to upset the other person and work to avoid it. DH can anticipate what is going to upset me based on past history and avoid doing so.

EX: yesterday he got home from work early, he knew I was going to cook dinner and I HATE cooking in a messy kitchen and the kitchen was a wreck. He was going to deal with the kitchen for me, knowing that if I'd had a bum day coming home to a messy kitchen would just make me feel depressed and overwhelmed (this isn't a DJ, I have TOLD him this is how I feel). He didn't get to the kitchen. He took care of our daughter instead. When I called on my way home the first thing he said was "Babe, I was going to get to the Kitchen for you but I took care of DD. We can work on it together and get it done quick when you get home."

He knew something would upset me and let me know that. He explained why he hadn't 'fixed' the situation and presented a solution. If I got home without calling him he would have stopped me before I got to the kitchen and said the same thing (this has happened in the past).

He's trained to see things that will make me unhappy and work to avoid them, or if he can't at least acknowledge that they're there and let me know he sees them (I do the same for him to the best of my ability). Some may see this as mind-reading, really I think it's just understanding your spouse and working overtime to ensure their happiness. I see it as him protecting my feelings from being hurt.

This is something he's LEARNED over time. It is something you can LEARN to do. I'm sure you knew your wife would probably not be in a good mood this morning, since yesterday was so rough (and even if she were in a good mood - yesterday was still rough). A quick text or email as soon as you got into the office saying you're thinking of her, maybe a little compliment - something to let her know she is in your thoughts would have been a good idea.

You can do this Markos, it just takes training and above all, TIME.

I don't think I said it's never going to work. I think I said the dishonesty is an extreme problem keeping things from working.

Still here, still trying to do Marriage Builders.

Still looking for practical suggestions using Marriage Builders concepts.

DJ's are hurting your marriage...and they are coming from both of you.

You DJ'd her about the UA time last night. Markos, ask her when you perceive her not having a good time. Don't assume. And do NOT react to your own assumption.

Prisca's "So you're ignoring me now?" is a DJ. It HURTS. Initial emotion (rejection is painful) is pain, followed immediately by frustration, anger and despair.

Are you team here? Or is Prisca fragile? She's one strong woman and you know and love that about her. Stop taking HER stuff as yours and vice versa.

Eliminate the DJs...point them out as you hear them...and do your amends..."Hey, I figured out what I didn't do yesterday about lunch, and I'm sorry. I have a better plan for the future. And I love when you ask me to lunch."

Take Vibrissa's advice and remember to breathe. Stop reacting and clear your head...and then choose your response.

You won't make her not DJ...be her partner in pointing them out and be grateful when she does for you, too. During UA time, when you didn't share your perception, wasn't that emotional dishonesty?

LA

OK, so here's an example from a discussion with a friend last night. This friend came over to get some help with her husband. My wife and I sat in the front room and had a very frank discussion. Let's call her Jane and her husband John.

I told Jane, "John and I have often spoken of you. It's all good, but we've often talked each other through marital difficulties. He's mentioned a number of times that he'd like to read the MarriageBuilders stuff with you, but is afraid you'll respond that the two of you should be reading your scriptures together instead."

Her response was angry, but controlled. "He's never once asked me about that. I would never respond that way. I would love to read books together that will help our marriage."

His DJ is assuming he knows that his wife won't like the idea, when in fact she'd be all over it like white on rice!

The next thing we discussed has particular relevance to your case. I pointed out that I'm sure John is not being completely honest with Jane yet, and she should prepare herself for his honesty.

"The key," I said, "is to remember that it's not the honesty that is causing the hurt you're going to feel. It's those actions. Those actions are long since done and gone, and the hurt you feel from his honesty is like peeling off the bandage to treat the infection underneath. It's painful, but it's not the source of the pain. It's the cure for it."

How you respond is CRITICAL to how willing she is to be honest with you. Don't start with the big stuff. Start with the little stuff, and show her you'll react in a loving, supportive way.

Instead of "How was your day today, honey?" try "What's the best thing you did today, honey?" Maybe "I'd love to hear about your feelings today" as well. These kinds of open-ended requests allow her to say as much as she wants to say. The more you respond positively to and reward her for her honesty -- even if she reveals ugly truths! -- the more likely she is to be honest with you.

It's Pavlovian. As is the entire MarriageBuilders program.

What she wants to say is nothing.

Well aren't you just a ball of sunshine today Markos.....? Dude, you need to snap out of it. Do you think this doom and gloom tude is helpful or harmful to your relationship?

Crazy man, IMVHO, this whole deal stems from a mistake you made and now we're back to "She's dishonest, she won't talk, she blah freaking blah".... Your focus is off again, you can't fix her. Focus on you, what are you gonna do despite this last set back, you gonna wallow in it til you get the full affects of it's stink or are you gonna put your big boy panties on and deal with it....?

I have no clue what you are telling me to do.

Please try to remember that the problem is that I don't know what to do. Not that I am refusing to do anything. It's great to hear that I need to wear panties and deal with it, but I'm asking what to do to show that I'm dealing with it.

I keep hearing to "move forward" and I don't know what that means. I follow practical suggestions like "ask her if she'll come to lunch with you the next day, so she'll know you do want to go to lunch with her," I report here that it doesn't work, and I'm accused of hounding her to go to lunch with me.

Are you reading my saying "What she wants to say is nothing" as some kind of defeatist attitude on my part? I wasn't communicating anything at all about my attitude. I was communicating simply a literal fact: she told me she doesn't want to say anything.

Here, look at the email conversation:










That's where I got on here and said she doesn't want to say anything about her feelings. I was hoping someone would give me some practical suggestions about how to deposit love bank units, under the circumstances.

Bill, much of your advice has been great, and I'm sorry if I'm frustrating you. But I'm desperately trying to figure out what to do, and it seems like most of your advice today is focused on telling me how to feel. Now, some encouragement is great, and I really do appreciate it. But I can't figure out what to do!

Does my last post clear things up a little bit? I'm not talking about my feelings when I say she doesn't want to talk; I'm just reporting her actions, in response to my actions.

Hm...after saying that she didn't have anything to say, she invited YOU to talk. You then said you didn't "know what to say other than I love you and want to spend time with you." Which, hate to say it, comes off as platitudes. And, your claiming not to have anything to say other than that, sort of undermines your initial request to talk. KWIM?

Sorry, just giving you a stranger's perspective. I think your wife has been a bit of a prat through this, but since you want to work to a better marriage, you have to find some way of dealing with it.

OK, based on some of what you've said in the past I'm going to make some assumptions here. Your lovely wife whom you've lured out of withdrawal to where she is excited to spend time with you as evident through her posts stepped outside the box, stepped outside her comfort zone, and asked to come up to spend lunch with you. She's fresh out of withdrawl, experiencing all these emotions once again and lays her neck out on the chopping block and what do you do? Admittidly you didn't think it through and did a blockhead thing. She was vulnerable with you and got shot the frick down. But that's done, it's over, no take backs. It was a love buster that took out a lot of deposits. It's extremely apparent that she is hurting, she has a fresh wound.

I don't recall anyone advising you to immediatly ask her to lunch the next day. Maybe I misread something. If they did, I TOTALLY DISAGREE WITH THAT. She's wounded and your basically asking her to forget that and come out on a day where it's convienent for me because I now see that I was a blockhead. She hasn't had time to recover, she hasn't had time to process, she hasn't had time to have lots more love units deposited.

I'm telling you man, you may look at this as a small deal but I think for her to step out like that was huge. I feel like you're minimizing it. I think ideally you want a relationship where she reaches out for you like that all the time.

And Yes, I come down on you hard, fast, and what I feel is brutally honest. I'm not trying to tell you how to feel but rather want you to fully appreciate and understand her feelings. She doesn't need to express them, she doesn't want to talk about them, she is freaking hurt. We talked a long time back about "fix-it" mode, stay out of fix-it mode though that's what you know and that's what you're comfortable with.

So when I said to start MBing again, I meant just that. Start making sure you're doing all the things that had brought you to that point. Make deposits. Don't love bust. If she wants to talk about this at some point she will but otherwise leave it alone and let her heal. And most importantly don't let this rule your attitude as that will simply compound problems. Be the shining Markos that she's seen recently and was excited to spend time with despite what's going on. That's showing her the light.

And lastly, learn from this. My wife takes anything less than full excitement from me to the ideas she's excited about as rejection as well. I refuse to reject her and no that doesn't mean that we always are able to do what she wants. But let her down easily and with enthusiasm for another plan so she knows it wasn't in vain and she has something to look forward to.

She's telling me repeatedly, over and over again, that she doesn't want to do UA time tonight. She'll do it, but doesn't want to.

Contrary to what you said earlier, Bill, it's not just sharing a feeling, it's complaining. No amount of me validating and reflecting and actively listening changes anything, here. She doesn't want to do it.

And she looks pretty disgusted that I tried to question her about it at all. So much for active listening.

Well, I haven't read the whole thread since the last time I was caught up. Maybe I'm getting old. Maybe all the garbage at work is making me turn into that grumpy old man I talked about a while back...

How do you restore a classic car?

You strip it down to the frame, examine, repair or replace every single piece, cleaning, painting, lubing, adjusting stuff, making it all fit together better than when it was new. It takes a lot of hard, tedious and intricate work, just getting the pieces to go back together.

So how do you fix a marriage?

Bet it isn't what you think...


I wonder where I could find something that would tell me how to fall in love again...




It would be nice if we got it all perfect the first try. It would be so easy if we just remembered to act based on preserving our love for each other so that we never hurt each other even by accident. When we do, which we always seem to find a way to accomplish for some reason, we need to apologize and go have fun together.

One premise drives the entire MB program. Just about everything we do affects our spouse either positively or negatively.

We don't have to be right.

We don't have to be perfect.

We have to be in love.

Dr Harley, on the CD you no doubt just got a copy of says (track 5) that whenever we try to resolve conflict preserving our love for each other is more important that the resolution of the conflict itself. The GOAL always needs to be to be in love.

Protection: Protect each other from the silly, stupid and thoughtless stuff we tend to do. Apologize when we screw up.

Honesty: Be honest with each other when something has hurt us without demanding restitution. Tell each other what we want instead of waiting for our spouse to read our minds or suffer through the trial and error, cut and try of the old way of being married.

Care: Meet the ENs that our spouse has identified as being the most important without sacrificing the four IENs during UA time.

Time: Go do something fun, for cryin' out loud! That is what you did to fall in love. Do that now. The intricate details of who is getting it right and which one is missing the mark won't fill anybody's Love Bank.

Don't need to stress over UA time. Just find something to do together that is fun and do it.

re: The lunch thing...

Did you offer an apology for not picking up on what she expected? Did she apologize for not being clear about what she wanted at the time?

The great killer of romantic love is unmet expectations...

Go do something fun!

Now I'll read the rest to see where else I can meddle...

Mark

Markos,

You can't fix it by analyzing it. Neither of you needs to be better educated about it.

Meet each other's ENs.
Control your own Love Busters.

If she won't spend UA time with you it is probably because she doesn't want to talk about the "problems." That ain't UA time.

Drop it...

Do something nice for her.

Up...

Down...

Rollercoaster ride...

Interesting that as some struggle to identify and learn to protect themselves by establishing boundaries, others of us seem to be trying to figure out how to break through the boundaries of our spouse.

If ya gotta force it to happen, it ain't gonna be fun anyway...

Mark

I can see where my advice could have been taken as he should ask her immediately to go to lunch the next day. My initial post I laid out a scenario with Markos offering lunch some other time. I meant it more as a 'Next time a situation like this occurs, say THIS instead of THAT' More as a principle or way of looking at situations. I was trying to say when she offers something and you have to reject it, make it a point that she know you are not rejecting HER and assert that you WANT to spend time with her and WANT to be around her.

I may have also suggested that he mention doing lunch at a later point when he saw her again. I meant more along the lines of 'sorry things didn't work out today, I would like to try for lunch next week how does that sound?' type of question, I didn't meant to imply Markos should make an issue of it - just make the statement and then if she says no let it drop. I really just suggested it as a way for him to let his wife know that he wants to spend time with her. I probably didn't explain myself well. I apologize. If the advice was wrong, again I apologize.

Markos she may be feeling a little badgered. She put herself out there and got hurt. Her walls are wanting to go back up. I'd maybe back off a bit with the talking and just make some love bank deposits. I seem to recall she likes watching television. Maybe you just watch it with her. If she'd let you, offer a foot rub or back massage while she watches. If you don't think she'll let you touch her just be in the same room with her as close as she'll let you be.

You say she's complaining - complaining is a good thing! She is trying to tell you something. She's trying to tell you she doesn't feel comfortable with you right now. Try to create an environment where she will feel safe.

Work on your side of the street. I know it's hard because you're seeing little successes and you want to push forward and get big successes. My DH says early on in our marriage he was struggling to deal with me. He started making changes in himself and it didn't seem to have any affect on me but he kept at it and slowly, over time I began to change in the way I relate to him. It happened SLOWLY and his initial reaction was to give up because the changes he made didn't seem to have any affect on me. But he kept at it and kept at it. Eventually I saw his changes and they had an affect on my behavior with him. The key is he KEPT AT IT. Marathon, not sprint.

So just keep at it. Keep workin on making deposits. Identify and curb those LBs. If you have a setback, if you make a bonehead move, analyze it - identify what you did wrong and figure out how you're going to do it different NEXT time. Apologize for your mistakes, but don't agonize over them. Accept that she's going to pull back sometimes. Accept that you may have to work extra hard before you see her acknowledge your efforts and reciprocate.

Kerala, I don't think his wife is being a prat. I think she loves Markos but has been hurt by him and doesn't want to be hurt again. Her behavior is understandable - wrong, right or indifferent, it is what it is.

I'm sorry if my advice has been harmful Markos. I know things can get better if you just keep trying.

I think the advice was all right, Vibrissa; I think I just obviously need work to make sure I don't appear to be badgering her.

It was never an issue to me for my wife to accept or not accept my invitation to lunch today.

What is an issue is getting back into the situation where my wife doesn't want me to deposit love units and me forgetting what I can do in that situation, feeling like there's nothing I can do. I get desperate and do stupid things when it feels like there's nothing I can do. Particularly when the one I love seems resolved to keep sending me the message: "There's nothing you can do."

Anyhow, I'm just now getting back on after leaving work, and I'm pleased to report that Prisca is asleep on the couch, having fallen asleep watching TV while I rubbed her feet. We spent most of the two or three hours before that together, too.

Seems like every Friday is bad for some reason. We had the same trouble last week.

Saturday morning is undivided attention time again, before the kids wake up. Last week I missed it, forgetting what specific day it was and also not realizing she even wanted to. (Something about someone telling me all day they don't want to do something makes me think they don't want to do it!) I won't be making the same mistake again tomorrow morning. Alarm is all set, and I'm just about to go get our bed ready and move us to bed.

Unless I find some interesting thread here.

No, I better sleep. Can't make it on 8 hours a week like Mark did.

Does pulling a half inch long splinter out of my bride's foot count as undivided attention time?

Not sure if I deposited love units for removing the splinter, or withdrew them for the pain involved. She seems pretty happy about it now, though.