Mark,
Where I get lost in the boundary concept is how to deal with the situation where your defenses have been broken and the enemy has crossed the lines (going back to your previous Blitzrkrieg ref). Isn�t that time to repel the adversary forces and THEN put boundaries in place to keep them out?

--ElCamino72

Larry,
Moving to the States is the big bet that could propel my marriage recovery. It also has a modest chance of prolonging and increasing the cost of personal recovery. I guess all BS eventually get to that moment where you either fold or go all in.

--ElCamino72

Oh, I�ll take a guess. Mark was probably spending way too much time on Ham Radio. I suspect that the extended exposure to RF has been the cause of his extraordinary cerebral development.

OK, I'll shut up now. I've been up for 30hrs straight at work in a long drawn conference call with support of various vendors having interoperability issues. I am doing the role of mediator for the end customer. My job right now is to be the Steve Harley between large technology companies that hate each other.

--ElCamino72

Mark is not and never was a HAM. I did however hang out with a lot of them and have worked in electronics and RF most of my life. Even my hobbies revolved around electronics for many years.

EC, One of the problems we always have with the idea of boundaries is this notion that when a boundary is breached imminent retribution is required to prevent the violation from continuing. This might be the solution for a nation being invaded by another nation with armed troops but it doesn't work very well in interpersonal actions within an ongoing relationship.

In days of long ago, cities often had walls for protection. The gates could be closed and any invaders were prevented from entering the city and doing harm to the inhabitants. This worked well enough as a defensive boundary as long as the enemies were limited in strength and pretty much little more than bands of marauding thugs.

But a more serious attack by well organized troops with a supply infrastructure that allowed them to be resupplied over a longer period of time was the death knell of walled defenses and massive buttresses. The problem is that when the attack continues for a long period of time, the very walls that were meant to prevent harm caused the inhabitants to be unable to acquire the things they needed for daily life. That is, while the attackers were kept without, the city dwellers were prevented from having access to crops, live stock and other food sources and often water as well. So the walls meant to protect became not a salvation but a prison that limited the movements of those living behind those walls to the point where surrender or starvation were the only real options.

As time went on retaliation became the biggest deterrent to border disputes. Smaller less powerful countries might still engage in such disputes today but the USA for example is not invaded for fear of reprisals that would overwhelm the attacking forces very quickly. Sustained warfare is very unlikely for very long if 100% of an overwhelming force is brought to bear against an enemy.

But in a marriage we can't simply live under constant threat of retribution or rely on overwhelming might to resolve conflicts. When our spouse does something that hurts us, if we are not at a place in the relationship where they are willing to stop harming us simply because we inform them that their actions have been harmful, our only real choices are to disengage from the assault on our position until the harmful actions have stopped.

Retribution will not ever restore the romantic love in a relationship. Retaliation cannot protect us from harm while at the same time sustain the relationship. Protecting ourselves has to become a stop gap measure that can only solve the immediate problem of being harmed, hopefully to address the real problem at a later time when emotional responses are under control by both of us.

Dr Harley has said repeatedly, and I quote him several times per week these days, that whenever we seek to resolve a conflict in our marriage the primary consideration needs to be sustaining the love relationship over and above even finding resolution. We need to seek a way to deposit love units into both Love Banks and avoid withdrawing them from either as pour most important priority.

So if when our �boundaries� are breached we react by returning harm for harm, retribution for retaliation, we will rapidly spiral downward away from Intimacy, through Conflict where our Taker will get stronger as we plummet further into Withdrawal where we will simply stop caring all together.

The first thing we must do in order to establish a boundary is to identify its purpose and intent. I might have a boundary that prevents my wife from hurting me by having an affair again. My boundary enforcement for this will likely be immediate divorce. But if she causes me to feel hurt by her Independent Behavior at times, even though her actions hurt me, I do not have make sure she hurts whenever she has hurt me. Rather, I should seek a way to prevent her IB from doing me more harm.

AOs are the ones everyone deals with, so look at that situation for a second. If I start shouting at my wife in anger over something, maybe even her Independent Behavior, it hurts her. As I hurt her I am withdrawing love units because an association is occurring between my presence and her pain. If she yells back, or refuses to cook dinner for a month, or decides to not have sex with me any longer, and then I get hurt as well. We have no resolution to the conflict but simply mutual dissatisfaction. The boundary of not letting me yell at her cannot be enforced by hard line tactics of retaliating and seeking retribution every time I violate her boundary.

If on the other hand, her response is to walk away from me, maybe announcing that she is disengaging so that I understand that I am violating her boundary, her rights, then the ball is back in my court. If I pursue her, she has the right to leave the house, if I am angry enough that she feels sufficiently threatened, she might go to her sister�s house for the night and ultimately if my methods of dealing with her do not change she has the right to divorce me in order to protect herself.

But responding to my AO by having her own or by withholding meeting my ENs cannot make me less likely to have another AO and might actually increase the strength of position of my Taker which is the part of me that resorts to AOs in order to accomplish something I want.

Now if I am trying to set a boundary for her that she cannot withhold my ENs, then I have already overstepped my sphere of ownership since I cannot set a boundary that defines her actions, only mine.

A boundary can only be a way to identify what is ours and what is not ours. When a boundary is violated it is because someone has overstepped their boundary and is encroaching on what is under our own control. Any consequence for that action must also be under our control and not designed to try to make them change their actions because that is not under our control but theirs.

There are certain motivations that get people to act or change the way they act. Fear of pain is one. Fear of loss another. These are the consequences we talk about when we state that there are consequences to our actions as it relates to enforcing boundaries. In marriage, the ultimate boundary enforcement is divorce, but setting the consequence of over drafting the checking account as divorce is probably overstepping our bounds and attempting to control the other person. Fear can be a strong motivator but it is not nearly as strong a motivator as reward.

Ideally the change in action should be its own reward but until that becomes so then rewarding the preferred action is a much stronger motivator than punishing inappropriate action. If I state up front that if my spouse does X then I will punish by doing Y I am not talking about enforcing a boundary but am really trying to manipulate her into acting a certain way or not acting a certain way.

Now if a guy walks up to be on the street and takes a swing at me, he had better be prepared to feel retaliation which though not as swift as it might have been twenty years ago will likely be more punitive since in the last 20 years I have learned to be much less tolerant before turning loose my wrath (comes from years in the retail business I guess). But if a guy cuts me off on the highway on the way to work I don�t have to push his car off the road because he violated my boundaries and impeded my rightful progress.

Some of this falls under a category I refer to as stupidity and ignorance as well. Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity and ignorance. If the other person�s intent was not to do harm to me, then I don�t need to punish them but simply ensure that I am not harmed by their stupidity and ignorance.

From a boundary in marriage perspective, unless my spouse is doing something to harm me, I don�t need to be protected from her actions at all. So a boundary doesn�t even need to exist. So if we are both in a state of intimacy and are both seeking to make the other happy, our Takers are already under control and we are not actively trying to harm each other and so protecting ourselves from harm transfers from the us to our spouse since it will be our spouse who initiates any future harm and can prevent it from happening by not acting in a way that will harm us. Therefore, we don�t need to establish any boundaries at all.

But when the relationship falls into disrepair and love busters abound then we both need boundaries to avoid from being hurt since our spouse is no longer giving us that protection from his or her own selfishness. This is the protection part of MB and not boundaries since if my spouse is protecting me from thoughtlessness then I don�t have to. It is only when our spouse is engaged in love busters that we even need to establish boundaries and then only in order to supply ourselves with that protection not being give to us by them.


Mark

Hi Mark,

I've read your excellent explanation a few times. I think that I'm starting to understand the concept a little better.

However, I'm still failing to understand how you can prevent becoming a doormat in a situation where you are repeatedly getting hit with exactly the same LB. I don't think that stating my hurt (which is already known) over and over until something changes is reasonable.

Taking your example, I am not going to make a big deal of the checking account being over draft once or twice. But if you continue to do it after I have clearly stated that over drafting bothers me then the ball is my court since you don't seem to care. So, is taking the check book away an acceptable solution? Or should I just opt between stating my hurt and/or plan B/D?

I have no interest in seeking retribution to LBs. However, sometimes it is necessary that I protect myself from direct and repeated attacks.

Looking forward to your comments

-- ElCamino72

One thought...

POJA rules!

Ultimately the final boundary enforcement in marriage is divorce. Before you get to that point there might be thousands of things you could try, some of which you might be able to think up on your own and some that others can suggest. One thing that NEVER works is to Love Bust in any way in return.

An AO does NOT stop AOs. IB does NOT prevent IB. The bottom line is that YOU can only control YOU.

What I am driving at here is that in marriage, if things are bad enough that they need to change then you can only change what you have control over and that is what YOU do, not what your wife does. If what she does HURTS you, then you have two options. You can end the relationship or figure out a way to not be hurt while trying to get her to change her actions. Yes, there might be consequences for her actions, but those consequences can only relate to what you will do when she does something that hurts you in some way.

Retaliation will NOT balance the account, tie the score or settle the debt. It will only ensure continued downward spiral of her Love Bank as well as yours.

You guys BOTH need to learn how to use POJA since POJA will eliminate almost 100% of your need to protect yourselves from each other.

I get the cycle here, EC. My wife would do something that was IB. I would get mad. For my family we always settled things logically, with debate and calm discussion. First we went into the back yard and tried to convince each other with agricultural implements, but then we would talk things over and settle it. (I had three brothers and I am the oldest). What I learned was that when my wife thought I'd get mad and have an AO, she would be more inclined to IB. She'd do something on her own without considering my feelings and I would retaliate with AOs, SDs and DJs until she felt as bad as I felt and then she'd respond with her own DJs, AOs and SDs and decide right then that I was trying to control her and so the next time she'd do the IB thing again and we'd repeat the whole cycle.

Years back on his Cook County Jail album, B B King did a version of How Blue Can You Get that was a classic, IME. In the middle of the song he does this monologue, usually based on some recent experience of his own or dependent on the audience at hand. For those serving time in jail, this really gets to the heart of the blues. So during this monologue, he begins with this:

"Fellas. I said Fellas!

Fellas, when your woman don't do like you think she should, don't be goin' up side of her head.

You know what I'm talkin' about.
Don't beat her!

If you beat her you only do one thing.

I said if you beat her you only do one thing!

<What's that?>

You make her a little smarter and she won't let you catch her the next time."

My point is that retaliation, punitive measures and stubborn adherence to single minded position will seldom win a battle. It will almost always result in an extension of the war.

If I ask you to put up your hand in front of you and push on it, what is your response?

Unless you think long and hard first, your normal response is to push back. The harder I push, the harder you push. Soon we're locked in this battle of wills and strength that neither of us is willing to disengage from. Eventually one of us might knock the other down and declare victory, but both of us are exhausted, not speaking to each other and the loser is perhaps hurt physically.

Now here's the thing. I didn't tell you to PUSH BACK, only to put your hand out. When I pushed, it was instinct to push back.

As it applies to her IB or any other thing she does that you wish to see changed...You KNOW when the hand is being asked to be put up. Disengage THEN. Or better yet, long before the fact discuss the hurtful action in a way that states the fact that it hurts you and when it happens you will disengage. The ball is now in her court. If she does the act again, then move up a level in response without hurting her in return with your own love busters.

Example: Something she says that you take offense at.

Level 1) "I can't have this conversation now. This kind of thing hurts me." Then walk away.
Level 2) You know, I told you that this is unacceptable" and walk away, go for a walk around the block or take a ride somewhere.
Level 3) ""I will not take this kind of abuse" and go to your parents.

You go up one notch at a time, withdrawing further, longer each time until she is willing to attempt to correct her actions.

If it isn't bad enough to divorce over, then it isn't worth making her feel bad enough about to withdraw from you over.

And here's the deal...

Be certain that it isn't a refusal to go along with what you want that is at stake here. She does NOT have to comply with all requests and neither do you. But that is what POJA is for. Keep in mind POJA does NOT ensure that you get what you want only that you don't hurt each other. It prevents IB and it prevents agreement in order to avoid conflict.

Have you read Dr Harley's story of the couple where the wife ran up their credit cards with her IB of overspending? The husband's solution was to cut up her credit card and impose a strict budget on her spending. She kept spending any way. It wasn't until they negotiated a budget she was willing to accept that she stuck to it. Because it was HER budget as well as HIS.

If you are under attack, get out of the line of fire.

If it is other actions you wish to see changed then POJA is the solution.

You keep coming back to discussion, negotiation, brain storming for a solution and trying to gain a resolution.

The MOST important thing is that you neither one hurt the other as the result of the conflict. Failure to keep that in mind will result in getting farther away from each other instead of closer together. If you are both committed to making the marriage work, everything needs to go on the POJA table. If one fails and opts for IB, then you go on and try again on the next conflict which will probably not be long in coming.

If she is in withdrawal and you begin to do things right, meeting her ENs and avoiding Love Busters, then she will begin to move from Withdrawal into Conflict. Then guess what happens...

At that point, her TAKER wants you to make her happy and she demands more, gets angrier when it isn't happening the way she wants, makes DJs, acts independently, repeats annoying habits because her Taker is running the show and she has no desire to try to make you happy. Love busters at this point only moves her back out of Conflict into Withdrawal and though the conflict itself stops, there is no resolution only disengagement and you have to work even harder to lure her back into even wanting you to try to make her happy which again produces conflict.

Making her stop her actions or do what she doesn't want to do is not about boundaries. It is trying to control or manipulate and THAT will always be met with resistance.

We still repeat the IB=AO cycle at our house from time to time, EC. We still argue tooth and nail. The difference now is that we both recognize when it is happening and have tools to use that don't rely on our instincts of SDs, DJs and AOs or IB to make it work out. We haven't talked about "the affair" in over two years though we have discussed "affairs" on occasion.

Your goal needs to be to stop her from withdrawing from your Love Bank while at the same time avoid withdrawing from her Love Bank. That needs to be the goal for the rest of your marriage. No losers, just winners; you, her, the kids, extended family and friends. EVERY solution to EVERY problem needs to have that goal as its focus.

If a marriage is unfixable there is only one option left. Talkin' 'bout the D word here. But if you are in love with each other even major issues have a way of falling by the way and the worst conflicts can be resolved or lived with though no resolution is forthcoming.

One thing is required to make recovery possible. That is a commitment to making the marriage into one that will make you both happy. This requires NC with the OM. It requires that you each establish boundaries that protect your marriage and boundaries that protect each other from your own selfish actions and desires. But you only have control over yourself and can only change your own behavior, your own actions and reactions. You can never control hers. You can't even prevent her from having another affair. Only she can do that.

Now making the marriage a great one requires a whole bunch of things but they can all be summed up into four basic parts:

Care (Meeting each other's emotional needs)

Protection (Identifying and eliminating Love Busters)

Time (Spending time with each other meeting each other's top emotional needs, especially the needs of conversation [no affair talk or discussion of hard issues allowed here] affection, sexual fulfillment and recreational companionship)

Honesty (RADICAL but not insulting or abusive, emotional honesty being most important and all done without Love Busters of any sort)

If you would like I can address the specifics of the overdraft later...

Mark

Great post Schtoop Inspirational stuff

Hi EC

Just thought I would add my 2cents.

Firstly I do not think there is one plaster that is going to fit all situations. We can not always make a woman do what we want and that would not ultimately be desirable.

I think what we need to do is manage each situation as it comes up and in doing so not leave ourselves looking like a doormat.

With the cheque book, we can not make them be sensible but we can educate them. I sat my ex wife down pulled out the bank statements and calmly showed her where all the money was going. I pointed out $20 is not much but 5 times a day is $3000 a month, $36000 a year, $360000 over 10 years. They do get the idea and then I suggest cutting up the credit card. I put her on a cash budget and she was far happier with this.

With your hairdryer incident you know it is only a hair style.
I know you think she is taking the p#ss but you have to look at bigger picture.
What you have now is a whole lot of tension, over what? A hair style.
Wife may have curly hair and you may think this is victory, but I can imagine wife being like, "Oh God, I have to dress like a clown otherwise EC will start sulking or have a tantrum".
This is not a good look for you. A hollow victory.

Someone here has to be the adult.
When wife straightens hair, if it was me (And I know MelodyLane wont like this) I would say "You know I am really starting to like you with straight hair." You might think you are loosing here but in her eyes she is now doing what you want. It knocks it dead as an issue. If she decides to annoy you further and curl her hair, well thats good too.
This way it seems like you are in control. This is a good look.

I have no problem saying no to a woman but we do have to choose our battles and manage the outcomes so that we appear to be in control. Sometimes it necessary to go with the flow and in these situations I try a make out it is my idea.

Well heck, I won't take many words: Usually when a woman is going out of her way to make you unhappy, it is because she is, usually about something she is unwilling to admit. We are supposed to guess. Women aren't wired like men. Sometimes I think that is a good thing.

Larry

Jack, its not that *I* wouldn't like it, that is not the issue. It is that your suggestion is not an effective strategy for recovery. Affair triggers should be avoided and eliminated as much as possible, not ignored. He won't be "knocking dead" the issue if he is triggered. He will be
a walking rage machine.

If anything triggers a betrayed spouse who is recovering from an affair, it should be eliminated. That benefits them both and aides their recovery. Wearing your hair in a manner that upsets your spouse causes incompatibility and instability in the marriage. If he just sucks it up, pretty soon he is eaten up with resentment.

The advice to avoid affair triggers is not *MY* advice, it is DR HARLEY'S advice. And that is what we are here for, after all, since he is the one who knows how to save marriages.

Jack, none of this is in line with Marriage Builders concepts. Have you read any of the material here? I am puzzled why you are here giving advice when you know nothing about the material? Do you know that ElCamino and his wife are working with Dr Harley directly?

Hi JB,

One of the things I've learned in the short time that I've been working on the MB program is about "educating" my wife. Without a doubt that doesn't work - I have the scars to prove it.

I suggest you take a look at the basic concepts of MB. In specific see Disrespectful Judgments under the Love Busters section:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3402_disrespect.html

Actually, one of the areas where I need to continue making progress is in eliminating my bad habit of trying to educate my spouse. I have slowly come to learn that it can only hurt my marriage in the long run. It may seem counter-intuitive but, if you look really deep into it, you'll find that DJ are a nasty way to show that your view is superior to your spouse's.

Please take the to read the MB concepts - you won't regret it. Some of Dr. Harley's ideas may sound a little radical so you should study the concepts as a whole to understand the logic. Even though I am struggling in implementing some parts of the program, I believe that MB is the right tool to gain a great marriage.

Thanks

--ElCamino72

to jack...

No man is a prophet in his own castle. A man can lead by example, but he better keep his mouth shut about what he is doing.

Got it?

Larry

As a woman I have to say, if you as a man try to educate me, you are not going to reach me.

Now if you say "hey honey let's try this new concept TOGETHER and see what happens if we BOTH do it" I might think on it a little more.

Jack, stop it. Go read Dr. Harley's stuff so you can debate and advise based on what you know instead of what you guess.

Larry

Mark,
It typically takes me a couple of days to absorb your posts. Great stuff!

What I am realizing is what is at stake is the principle of the POJA. Our marriage should be run under the POJA in order to be successful. So what I really need to seek is a full commitment to POJA. Instead of arguing about hairstyle, family visitations, or others petty stuff, our focus should be on buying into the principle of the POJA.

So right now, the island that I'm willing to die on is the principle of the POJA. That's where I'll draw the line on the sand. I expect to achieve a marriage that uses the POJA to resolve conflicts. So if there's another hairstyle issue, instead of focusing in the action, I'll raise a complain regarding a violation of the POJA principle. Instead of talking about curly/straight hair, the conversation you be about our commitment to the rules that protect our M. I my spouse believe in POJA or doesn't want to commit to consistently executing it then I may need to use a boundary.

I just had a brief conversation with Rizos. She approached me with the concern that we're in withdrawal from each other. In addition to other concerns such as me wanting a "perfect marriage". I replied that we should strive to obtain a great loving marriage. Anything less will not be worth the effort. So that's why we should commit to the MB program.

In our first coaching session with Steve Harley he assigned roles to us. I am the patient, Rizos the physician and SH the supervisor. Rizos is supposed to be taking care of my wound. I let her do her job. If I have a complain, I take it to the supervisor. I never felt that Rizos adopted the physician role. Her defensiveness has been a huge impediment to perform the physician role. Her motto continues to be that I should "move on"

Anyways, her act of approaching me was a good gesture so I'm happy about that one. We decided to avoid LBs and get a more active use of POJA as a starting point to get ourselves out of withdrawal.

--ElCamino72

El C


I got that, as you know, a long time ago. So what did Steve say about it?

Larry

I've told Steve that I am suing the hospital for malpractice

I know he's taken the issue with Rizos but since those conversations are done separate I don't have the exact details. There were some adjustments in Rizos' treating me as a patient but that didn't last too long. I am not sure if that approach still applies. But it feel like it didn't last long enough.

--ElCamino72

EC,

You don't need to commit to POJA or get a commitment from her to POJA you need to follow POJA...Both of you need to do it but you don't have to wait for her to start doing it.

According to Dr Harley, the most important part of resolving any conflict in marriage is preserving your love for each other. It is more important than any conflict and more important than any resolution to the conflict. It is important when you are wrong but also when you are right. Right and wrong are not as important to your marriage as being in love with each other.

What will save your marriage and what will make it a great one will be the two of you deeply in love with each other. If you are in love with each other, almost any other issue in the marriage can be handled even if it never gets resolved. How you try to fix it matters more than getting it fixed.

As for the moving on and getting over it and all that jazz...BTDT. What makes it so hard as a BS is that you really do eventually have to decide to go forward since remaining stuck in the past prevents you from living in the present and that is what keeps any Love Bank deposits the WS is trying to make from getting through.

Some of it has to do with triggers and some of it has to do with intertwined triggers. When an affair is so interconnected in personal life and business and a double betrayal is involved one memory leads to another which feeds back to the other side again which ramps up the emotions and feed back the other way and before long you are living out your whole life all over again and it keeps you from even feeling anything other than sorrow and pain. Getting past that back and forth, one betrayal feeding the other kind of dynamic memory equation is hard but I think that if the first step memories that feed into that storm can be managed (not changed but replaced with other memories by actively thinking about something else when they come up) that the whole process can be taken down a notch at a time until the whole thing falls apart.

This is something that Rizos can only marginally help you with, BTW. You are the one who sees the cloud building and so you are the one who has to change the way it is all coming together. You know when you think of something that is going to trigger you. If you can identify it sooner, you can actively begin to think of something more pleasant rather than heading into that spiral of one thought feeding an emotion which triggers another thought which leads to more emotion and so on until you are paralyzed by emotion and unable to act in order to dig out of the mess.

The secret is in learning to recognize that first trigger and knocking it down before the emotional content appears. You have about 1 1/2 or two minutes at most to do this before the emotion shows up, so you have to learn to recognize it for what it is before the emotions flood over you. This is where Rizos can really help BTW is if you can learn to communicate to her the process of eliminating the emotional content of triggers she might be able to do little things that can layer on more new memories that don't lead you back into the betrayal stuff.

As for her tending to your wounds, in my case my wife got to tend to a real wound 6 months or so into recovery. I had a wound (the result of an infection) that tried to eat the skin starting with the skin on the side of my ribcage and I ended up having two surgeries, one to stop the infection and the second to fix the 4 X 8 inch whole in my side that had no skin, fat or any other covering all the way to the muscle underneath. Between the two surgeries, my wife changed the dressings every day, and pretty much took care of me in ways I had never experienced from her before.

Remember, EC, that POJA isn't just about you getting what you want or stopping her from her IB. It is all about not hurting each other as you learn to deal with conflicts and not hurting each other is the most important part of the whole deal. I'd go so far as to say that your goal should be to not hurt her even when she hurts you. You don't have to go back and make things right once they are done wrong, since you can't really change what already happened anyway. The best you can accomplish, IMO, is doing no further damage so that you guys can be in love with each other.

Being in love is what brought you together and loving each other is what will keep your marriage going. Everything that either of you does can either add to that or diminish it. You are either building love or destroying it with each word, act or reaction. If you eliminate all the things that damage love and only do things that build it up, you will live a long happy life together.

I know people always talk about how love isn't enough, but you can't be happily married if it isn't present. When it is you can work with almost anything that comes along...

Mark

Things have been better in the last few days. I really needed a breather from the LBs atmosphere so I'm catching a good break. Last Saturday, Rizos had a moment that felt like a genuine effort to amend. Not much was said but her approach had a remorseful tone which I don't think I've heard before in this process.

She also talked to my mother over the weekend which I recognize as a huge effort to do what's right. In addition, there have been positive attempts to POJA some issues. For a few days we've been doing much better at meeting our needs. Now I just need to continue executing my part to sustain it.

I spent the last month in a defensive stance waiting for the right moment to make a come back. This is it, the time to get out of the shell and charge again. Here come the championship rounds. This is the last stand - where it gets decided what kind of R will follow.

We'll see.

--ElCamino72