Thanks believer. I'm not discounting everyone else, but my job is a crisis situation and it's taking a lot of my mental time and physical energy right now. In addition, my 15 year old is being..well a 15 year old. He's not in trouble..in fact, we usually hear from other adults how well mannered and polite he is. But he's trying his big britches on for size in English class and the teacher sent me an email tonight.

At the same time, I get an email from the dean of academics about an honor they are giving him for his achievement in another area. Teenagers are enough to drive you over the edge! He's surly and know-it-all at home. My oldest was so much easier!

Ok, back to this situation: I finished up my shift on my second job tonight and walked out of the office, dinner plate in hand and silverware clacking. H was sitting in the family room watching TV. He also had his reading glasses on and was looking at his phone. I walked up behind him...not trying to disguise myself or keep quiet. He was scrolling through email. I stood there for about 10 seconds and then said something. I startled him. He got angry and said "are you trying to sneak up on me?"

He wasn't looking at anything incriminating. But he sure has a guilty conscience.

So I said..."no. Are you trying to hide something?"

And then I walked into the kitchen.

OH, it seems to me that both of you are not sharing all your feelings about your situation. Maybe you need a local counselor, in addition to Steve Harley, to referee an honest session where you air what you both are really thinking, maybe one at a time, not together.

I am just thinking of a few other couples from 15 years ago. I probably know more about your situation than I know about theirs, but both sets of wives and husbands did a lot of guessing and imagining what the other was thinking, trying to put some rationale on their behavior.

One of the husbands lost his job, and quickly found another, like in a week. It was a consulting job where he could work anywhere from 25 to 60 hours a week and earn $60 or so an hour. His wife was criticizing him constantly, and dropping hints about how she made a mistake marrying him, how he was a failure, about leaving him. So this guy does what he thought was pretty rational: keep his income low in order to keep his alimony payments low. This just brought on another cycle of abuse from her for working part-time and the rest on his business ideas.

But one day, his wife surprised him by asking him to go to counseling, and he surprised her by being glad to do so. She didn't like what she heard, she thought he was crazy, and spiteful, and mean, but when she made it clear she was not really planning to leave, he started working full time and earning over $125K, like he had before. She cleaned up her blaming him for all her angst over raising 4 children, and they are still married today.

They don't need a session to air out their feelings, what they need is to learn how to be Open and Honest with each other without Love Busters. Having someone else referee and then translate their feelings may solve the conflict, but it won't build intimacy.

We've been to a couple different counselors who refereed and translated for us -- succeeding in solving some conflicts for us and giving us a momentary high. The result? We are now farther apart than we have ever been before.

I agree...

... but they don't seem to be doing that right now on their own, and they don't seem to be laying it all out for SH, either, which limits his ability to help them.

I really think just being O&H with someone else helps a person face what they are really thinking, and maybe realize how much of that is not based on what the other person is doing. In the example I gave, what little I know of that one man's situation and his "reasoning" is from his mentioning things to me over a period of two years, which I know he was not sharing with his wife. That is the other problem with talking to just any third party: it keeps a person from talking to the one to whom they should be talking. With a marriage counselor, that dynamic should not happen, but should be the first step to being steered towards O&H conversations between spouses.

I think I agree with Retread on this one. Ideally we should be able to be O&H with our spouse without someone to referee.

But sometimes, it simply isn't safe without adult supervision.

I have been in MC with a completely useless MC. You know the drill. Talk about feelings, learn how to communicate, etc. Well, even though I say it was "useless" it was also very beneficial. It was the one place where I began to be able to be O&H about my negative feelings with my husband on a regularly scheduled basis. Having done it in a controlled environment laid a great foundation for me to be able to do it without adult supervision. And knowing what I knew about how traditional MC "works" (or doesn't work as the case may be) I did my best to avoid going to places that just rehashed painful memories and kept our Love Banks drained, and tried to focus on present problems and emotions.

Then again, OH may be beyond any kind of counseling at this point and I don't think any of us would blame her

OH:

Its recommended that you be O&H.

I agree.

Its recommended that you don't LoveBust.

I agree.

Eventually.....

You do what your supposed to be doing.

You go to work.
You make appointments with SH
You make sure that the kids stuff is taken care of.
You balance the checkbook-somehow.
You make things happen.
You check your behaviors and try to be O&H and not LB.

And your rewarded with a husband who lays on his A$$ and drinks, and TM's everyone else. And actively makes things more difficult. And is hiding something.

Would an apology from him be nice? You bet.
A shoulder? Certainly.

But this has gone on long enough.

It is a caruosel that is spinning slowly. I have been describing your H as being in a vortex. That vortex is spinning and sucking everything in this household down with it.

I see him sliding even farther down. HE lost the "good job" because of layoffs, downsizing, whatever. That was YEARS ago. And now, the reason he lost his job, or can't find another one is because of the "hebe's" This is not taking personal responsibilty for his own actions since.

OH forces MrOH to look at his behaviors by moving to the couch, and then there is some improvement. But soon its back to the same old behaviors. That is the Caruosel ride. The scenery goes by, but it doesn't really change....

The vortex sucks the life out of the family. Your 15 YO is seeing the male role model of sloth. And "talk-back" stuff.

And yet OH presses on.

That is why Dr H developed Plan B. Because you can read his every book. Scrutinize and commit to memory every line.

And it makes no difference at all if your spouse stays the same.

Then its time for Plan B. Because you have had enough of the madness. And you need to protect yourself.

Some believe that Plan B is only to be used in the case of affairs. No. Its to be used when all else fails. To protect what little love you have from completely draining away.

Or killing the guy.

LG

I have to say I agree with LG on this one. I haven't lived with near what you have lived with, but I have been close enough on several fronts to know that making myself better ad nauseum gets - well- ragingly infuriating after awhile. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Even if that "same thing is noble and righteous and good," if the result does not truly change....it's time to do something different.

There. I said it. May the fleas of 1,000 camels descend upon me.

I really appreciate all your comments.

I'm not sure if I'm at a point in my life where I'm ready to spring Plan B into action. I'm strongly considering it.

I've thought about a Plan B1.0 and B2.0 as a means to get me through this immediate crisis and give me some time to figure out what to do. Still ruminating on those as well.

Had H's texts forwarded to my phone (along with all other texts...see I can be sneaky!)

Had another "come to Jesus" discussion with him last night and he reacted much as I thought...capitulated when Plan "get the f.. out" was on the table. I have very mixed feelings about where to go with that.

Indicated that he wants to keep talking with SH; didn't like my comment on the cancellation request (I copied him) where I said "at this point, I'm not interested in rescheduling". Don't know why he didn't say anything four days ago when I did that but...oh well.

We did agree that the $$$ is a huge issue right now (that..gee..maybe a JOB would help?). So he agreed that we would read one of Harley's books together and do the worksheets necessary. We still have to share our LBQs so perhaps we'll start there.

My heart isn't really in it though. At this point, I feel like I'm phoning it in, or just running through my lines on the movie set.

I suppose it can't hurt, in the absence of other definitive action, to put more MB tactics into places, such as scheduling UA, doing the LBQ and using POJA myself to start. (I've been doing that! yay, me!)

PORH is going to come very soon as those texts wind up on my phone (gee, how did they get there, honey? But you know, I'm curious about this text exchange with cousin B...")

Thanks all.

I AGREE!

Simple. Realize his words mean NOTHING. He is a manipulator and a user. (Wow, that was probably a DJ--sorry)


Of course he wants to keep 'talking'. To SH or to anyone for that matter. It buys him just a little more time to do NOTHING!!


I'm all for MB, but honestly HOW is it going to help him find a job!!! He needs to get up and go find a JOB!. NOW. Then he would have less time to bad mouth his wife on TM or to drink too much or irritate you while you are trying to work.



I would not tell him ONE word of what I've read on his texts. I'd use that intel for my own benefit to make the decision I need to make for MYSELF and my children.

(((OH)))

There is a discussion on SisterReed' thread about how MB can actually be a detriment when the H is using it as a way to manipulate the W. The whole O&H and POJA thing can be used for the manipulative spouse to get his way.
In this case, Plan A was an abject failure.
And how do you O&H and POJA---I'm a racist pig and I hate Jews?
Very, very upsetting.
So sorry you're in this sitch, OH. I almost think your work troubles and money troubles would get better if you didn't have one lazy, racist mouth to feed. Sorry for being so harsh. I'm just angry on your behalf...

One of the things we're trying to get through to a teen we're harboring... you don't judge people by their words, you judge them by their actions. People *try* to *TELL* you who and what they are, but in reality, they **SHOW** you.

My H *showed* me change, which is the ONLY reason we're still married. Right now I'm questioning the longevity of those changes, but I don't have reason to question the motivation of them. He's still trying, he's just not all the way there yet. That's a situation, in my mind, to keep working at.

Your H *talks* about change, but what change has he actually *shown* you?

I know you have WAYY too much on your plate to make a decision now, and that's probably a good thing. When you're in crisis mode is NOT the right time to make a life-altering decision. (Other than the ones you can't avoid, like doing something about your job.) But what you *DO* need to do, IMNSFHO, is establish some CONCRETE BARRIERS of protection around yourself, and do whatever is necessary to protect yourself and your kids from ANY AND ALL abusive or advantage-taking behaviour until you *can* figure this out. Don't put up with even one tiny ration of shyte. Kick him out to the couch, HECK, kick him out to a tent outside... it's spring, he should be ok... at the VERY NEXT AO. Whatever it takes, don't let him drag you down ANY further than he already has.

Huge hugs! You will get through this!

Real quick 'cause I'm pressed for time at the moment:

Yes, actions over words, I get that. (he is doing more on the networking/meeting job hunting side of things, but still not enough IMO).

I am going to continue to apply MB for my own benefit. It might not be the answer but it can't hurt and can only help me.

I just went into the cell acct (I'm the admin) and blocked the ex-cousin (cousin's exH) from sending texts. Yup, I know it won't solve the underlying problem, but it will give me a small sense of satisfaction that I meddled a bit in their communication.

We'll see what else transpires. I know if I say anything about his anti semitic remarks..he will revert to his standard "not talking about you, you are different, that was guy talk..and other yadda yadda..", so I'm probably not going to go that route.

Interestingly, he was all over me last night for continuing to downplay his ongoing remarks about how he hates where we live, he hates all the people who live here, etc.

I replied that I couldn't listen to over-generalizations anymore; I'm happy to listen to a specific complaint about a specific person. And I then I said "I hear your frustration about the people here in general. I'm very interested in hearing your plan to address that."

Caught him short for a minute but then he circled back to his rant and how again, I never listened and I again, had to say that I was happy to listen to his plan to address that.

He shut up after that.

BTW...

Saying "but you're not like that" is pretty offensive in and of itself. IMO.

For example, what if someone said:
"All <insert some racial category> are all good-for-nothing, lowlife <insert derogatory racial slur>. But you're the exception. You're not like that. You're a credit to your race."



In science, this would be called ignoring all data points that don't support your hypothesis.

I think it's also an example of how racists can pretend that they are not racist, by admitting that there are exceptions to their racist comments. Like saying, "Some of my best friends are <blanks>! So that gives me the right to make derogatory comments about <blanks> because I admit there are the exceptions!"

So: "ALL <blanks> are bad... except for you, you are the ONE that isn't completely useless... oh, and there's Bob up in Canada, he isn't completely useless... and Fred in Florida... and all the others I haven't met... and the doctor in the ER that time so-and-so needed stitches... and that nice sales clerk who helped me when I was in a hurry... and the policeman who is a <blank>... but except for them, all <blanks> are bad."

Oh, BTW... I LOVE your response last night!!!!!

This is how I am affected by his language too. I am trying to be objective about him---I know that is not always possible when we become fond of someone like we are of OH---but he continues to make my skin crawl more and more. I don't think he wants to change anything. I think he wants to continue to use you OH. As a verbal punching bag, as a meal ticket as an excuse for all his woes. I hope I am wrong.

Silver lining department: make sure you keep copies (electronic as well as paper copies stored off site with a trusted relative) of these text messages. Who knows, they might come in handy some day. Like maybe at a custody hearing? Seems like a fairly straightforward argument. My ex-H hates Hebes. Our kids are Hebes. Not in their best interest to spend too much time with the Hebe-hater.

Then again, I don't know anything about family law or what a judge would think is or isn't in a child's best interest.

Excellent point, hold.

I'd not reveal that you have access to those msgs, if it were me. That would include blocking ex-cuz-in-law, and also the forwards to you, if he could tell that they are being forwarded to you. Knowledge is power. Fore-warned is fore-armed. Don't tip your hand.

... oh yes, obligatory MB admonishment... you didn't POJA canceling the appointment with SH. Not saying that was wrong, under the circumstances. Just sayin.

*hugs* OH...

Yeah, I might unblock the cuz. Let him keep sending messages. Let your H keep replying. The more ammo the better. Let him bury himself. As jayne says, keep your powder dry.

Yes. Unblock the cuz.