That was an awsome response, Chris. Nice job.

MrA,

What if you used listen and repeat? What I got from your example conversation was that you assume you know what she's saying. A reasonable assumption--she's speaking English.


MrA: "I hear you that his actions are really important to you. That you have a different expectation of him than I do right now, for what participation means. I want to know your thoughts and talk about this more. I know you know I do instruct him and we can talk about this in private. Would tomorrow night at 8pm be good for you?"

You wanted to refute, to inform...and she's already informed...and it wasn't to her liking. To understand her stuff, you don't lie and tell her you'll do better next time...and you don't set yourself up when you're too tired (like the other poster said)...and you don't refute her POV. Neither is fact...not the length of the service, your son's behavior or your allowances.

Seems like you want more fodder for not doing healthy boundary enforcements, to really know your wife and where her fear/thoughts/perspective is coming from. That's yours to determine. "That's right" was a lie you told, in a way. You thought you were right by being compassionate, thoughtful and understanding of your son, the length of service, etc. Which makes your wife wrong.

You don't like her telling you that you don't instruct him (which is a lie she told) or that you're not doing your job right, like a fact.

No one does. It's abusive. She is abusive. Doesn't mean you then do not validate, acknowledge her stuff as hers. By NOT doing so, you support her abuse...encourage it.


Get this really great signal...for radical honesty. I don't know if the conversation would have stopped with the imaginary response I wrote or not. If it didn't and she continued, then you feel defensive...say it.

"I feel attacked right now. I know because I feel defensive. I really am looking forward to continuing this discussion tomorrow night when I'm not tired."

I don't see her DJ'ing...I see her use of "you" statements, stating her opinion as fact is the most common trigger to you feeling defensive.

Listen and repeat gives you the opportunity to break that pattern in your mind. "I hear you're of the opinion that son should <blank>, is that correct?"

See, you're correcting in your mind the way she states stuff as her opinion. Because it is...that helps you not to feel attacked. Takes the right and wrong out of it...because being right is the red herring of marriage.


Your DJ of your w's brain is a coping DJ. Doesn't work, isn't disrespectful. Doesn't own your half of the way you hear...and that you don't confirm or clarify what you heard.

Begin listen and repeat and you'll be able to move up to listen and repeat with filter. Up your honesty...tell her when you're looking down on her, feeling attacked, hearing her intent as degrading and hateful.

That's informative...stop trying to educate her on facts...that's where you're buying into the "you" statements and keeping them going.

Drop your half.

In Fall in Love, Stay in Love, Dr. Harley says that if your spouse is sensitive to criticism, they most likely have a high EN of Admiration. Does that click with you at all?

You think she externalizes...and you are externalizing yourself in your w...and she internalizes a lot, too. The two becomes one in a marriage does this. Just what you think you struggle with, most likely, your partner does, also...and you both react in similar ways, only seeing it coming at you...not from you.

Make a new boundary to seek to understand what she's saying first...how important, that it's coming from her as her own opinion, her experience, and to clarify or confirm what's really bothering her. That's truly knowing her. Not solving an issue.

Do you want to know if she felt embarrassed, judged, criticized by others around her? Not to judge what she felt...to know?

Not to excuse her abusive "you" statements...just to mind your own? You're equally powerful in this marriage. She cannot domineer without your permission...and domination comes from fear.

I think you want her love and respect, her understanding and consideration. I remember that really well...so I began this journey by finally making those my boundaries...making sure I was truly acting from those instead of looking at all the ways my DH wasn't.

In that next night discussion, you'd have the chance to really know what your W was thinking. Not to fix her stuff...to know it. When we share our fears with our spouses, our experience, the fear drops by half right there, in the sharing.

"I am glad to know your fears about our son's participation. I really like how I handled Easter service and I'm okay with it. Now that I understand your expectations, I'll stay aware of it, even more. You're most important to me, and I love you."

That's acting from consideration, respect, understanding and love. And when you cannot, due to fatigue, ambush or something else, state it. Own it. You might think you did that only then you told her to drop it. That's domineering, isn't it? A "you" statement you so hate?


Being laid back and her being aggressive is part of what attracted you to each other in the beginning. It will also be your undoing if you allow it. Don't.

Laid back is not laudable...no more than aggressive. What you both craved was for one to become more personable and the other to become more assertive. You can have that...which is why we call marriage partnering. Don't think your laid back ways (which has acceptance (positive) and conflict avoidance (negative) in it) is the right way to be.

No more so than aggressive (which as deep connection through radical honesty (positive) and abuse (negative) in it).

ChrisNOVA's post was great...really hit on this. I'm chiming in because of your choice to SEE her as walking all over you. Drop that. She cannot without your permission. Lose that image. See yourselves as you really...two equal, whole, marvelous human beings in one union. What you do and NOT do matters as much as what your W does and doesn't do.

What you crave most you are most likely least giving. Change that and you'll change your life. You are a man who ponders, reflect, strives. Not laid back...all active. Understand that your old acceptance that others act as they do is theirs...bring that back...and do not avoid conflict...schedule it. She's your perfect match to work through your fear of it.

Which is an act of intimacy...not smooth your marriage...expand in it.

Such are the tools of a love whisperer. And if this resonates in you (even riles) then you already are one.

LA

No, in a NORMAL relationship I would look at them as 2 separate emotional needs...in my pervious relationships, before I got married SF and Affection were separate...

I'm married to a woman who has no need for SF or Affection, therefore she doesn't feel they are valid emotional needs, thus I can expect no initiation of Affection or SF from her...and this has been the case our whole marriage.

I know MB's and some residents here are against the whole "childhood issues", but my wife being raised by a single and young mom (her mom was 19 when my wife was born), and not seeing what a "normal" (if there is such a thing) marriage relationship is...her mother's been married 5 times (she's bipolar)...married on a "high", divorce on a "low"...has formed her opinion of what a marriage looks like...in other words, she's never seen a marriage.

Even though my father was a mean as hell alcoholic (he's now sober)...my mother still stayed and I did see glimpses of what Affection in a marriage was.

Like my kids, I too have to fight to get Affection from her...she doesn't give it, she doesn't know how...that's just the way she is. Case in point...My mother observed how our kids act around my wife and how she responds...my mother asked me one day how my wife was showing affection to our kids...I said, she treats them like, me...if you want affection, you have to be the one to initiate it...my mother told me that a few years after we got married, my wife asked my mother, if she ever reaches over and hold my dad's hand as they are driving...My mom said on occasion, why? My wife answered...I desire to do that, but I just don't know how to reach over and do it.

So right now, in my relationship with my wife, SF/Affection are one in the same...when we do have sex, I get both needs met (if that makes sense)...

Honestly Chris, sometimes I want Sex (and not really be in the mood), just to feel her touch me to kiss me.

After this weekend and last night...if I seriously had the money, means and balls...I would leave work this evening and never go home... (right now I'm pissed and not having a good day, tomorrow I could have a new outlook)

I've read self-help books and all end the same way as the MB's concept...meet your spouse's needs and your needs will be met...I've read "Sex begins in the kitchen"...that books a lie...I've heard the saying..."If you want sex Friday, start preparing for it on Monday"...that's a lie...

I've been meeting her needs the best I know how...she's turned off from the MB's concept...since she won't even look at the MB's EN's list...I remember her reading the book by Dr. Chapman, The Five Love Languages and her saying "Acts of Service" and she even commented that "Physical Touch" was mine...so I've been doing all I can to meet her "needs"...

This weekend she goes on a Church retreat for moms...I take off half a day Friday so she and a friend can leave early...she leaves and never kisses me, hugs me...nothing...walks out the door, turns and says bye...ok, so I figure she's was busy and in a hurry...I make excuses for her...something i now realize I need to stop doing...she comes back Saturday evening...i have the house cleaned, laundry caught up and the kids showered...she says hi and walks right by me...nothing...she knows after awhile, I'm not happy...

Kids get in bed and she asks what's the problem...I tell her what I said above...her response: "I didn't realize I needed to treat you like a kid!"..."I'm sorry, I'm not a lovey dovey person...I just don't THINK about it...geeze"...THAT's her problem...she doesn't THINK to be nice and show a little affection!

So I let it go, no AO's...and I'm on my best behavior...Monday, I do my normal chores and carry all the kids to soccer practice, so she can do her online school...Last night, I take my daughter to gymnastics and the other kids swimming at the YMCA, again to give her alone time, get home fix supper and clean up and shower the kids...after they're in bed...we come down stairs and she mentions "LOST" is finished recording (we have a DVR) and now "V" was on and she needed to finish an outline...I suggest when she's done with the outline, we spend some "alone" time, a back massage...ect...ect...I get the "NO, not interested...I want to watch "LOST" and "V"..."

I went to bed pissed and wanting to cut the freakin cable to the TV...I'm done...

Mr. Anderson,

Forgive me if this sounds abrupt and critical. I am in a hurry but something in your last post struck me and I had to respond albehit quickly.

Before I respond, I will say that I do see SF and affection as important to my husband and I comply even when I don't really feel like it.

What struck me about your post is that she came home and was not affectionate; however, I didn't see where you requested this or attempted to initiate this. The reason I say this is because those needs are clearly higher on my husband's list and sometimes I truly don't think about it...not because I don't love him but because I have other things on my mind and it just doesn't occur to me.

You said she doesn't think to be nice. That sounds like a DJ to me. I do think to be nice, I think saying hello, is nice. It sounds like you are doing more than you want to with the expectation. That you will be rewarded.

Expectations lead to resentment.

I also don't know about the TV thing....I would never turn down a massage; however, I have noticed that my husband has a habit of offering these things when it is convenient for him....like during an episode of Grey's Anatomy or something equally chic flick like. On another note, I have never been offered a back massage without the expectation of reciprocity. :-) If she is like me, she will feel guilty allowing you to rub her back and then not following it up...so she just skips the back rub.

Once again, I do not know your whole dynamic. I am just writing because that struck me as something my husband would complain about so I am trying to give the other viewpoint.

Mr. A I am so sorry you are feeling this way.

Can I suggest something?

Please don't use the word "normal" when speaking about relationships. IMO that's like using the word "inches" when describing how many cans of paint it takes to paint a garage door...or using the word "cat" when someone asks you how many milligrams of ibuprofin you took.

About Mrs. A and her past:
Yes, some MBers are very firmly against looking into the past, and some believe there is value in it. I'm in the second camp. I think knowing about our past and our family history is useful to the extent that it assists us in our quest to move forward. Unguided dwelling is unproductive... "navelgazing." That being said, some most of us have not witnessed functional relationships during our childhood, but we can learn to have functional relatonships as adults if that's what we want and we are motivated to learn.

What would motivate Mrs A to learn and to DO? I realize you're feeling frustrated and angry but can we brainstorm here about that?


I believe those feelings are a result of much more than this weekend and last night.

I am not sure if this is out of order or not but what do you think about drawing a line? What I mean is - this has been going on for awhile now (Am I right?). So, what if you were to tell Mrs A (or bring it up in an MC session) that you are considering a separation / divorce because you are very unhappy?

It seems that your Love Bank for Mrs A is being depleted because you feel you have been giving and giving without receiving what you need.

Does Mrs A meet any of your other top ENs?

Thanks for the reply...

Ok, so let me get this straight...the whole MB's concept is to meet your spouse's EN's so that in theory, you'll build up enough love units, so that your EN's are met...

Eventually, there's going to be some expectations, when I'm meeting her EN's right? So eventually the resentment is going to have to be dealt with...

Yes, if it's been a month since I've had sex and I initiate a massage, after I've been meeting her EN's for the past month, I'm going to want sex after...Trust me, I've a very give person during sex...I'm also not a sex fiend either...once, MAYBE twice a week...If she wants a massage w/ no strings attached, catch me when I'm fulfilled sexually and she can have all the massages she wants without strings...she knows this...

Not necessarily true....nor wrong.

The wrong kinds of expectations usually cause disappointment. Valid expectations of other people which are betrayed cause resentment. Shouldn't they?

Expectations must be managed.
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2363707#Post2363707

Yes, the plan is you meet her EN she in turn mets yours. Of course in marriage you have the right to expect SF among other things.

What I am noticing however, in your posts is that you spend a lot of time detailing what you are doing and have done with regards giving her time to do her online classes or meet with her girlfriends. I also hear you saying that to avoid AOs, you "let it drop." I am relatively new at this so I could be very wrong (its been known to happen) but I don't think that Dr. Harley is saying go above and beyond the call of duty and bury your feelings when you aren't getting your needs met.

Once again, I am not an expert and the only reason I am responding to you is that you sound like you could be my husband which makes me a pseudoexpert.

Without being too graphic, I'll give an example. My husband (who is also a giver in the SF department) wants to do something that he believes will bring me pleasure. It has in the past and I'm sure in his mind he thinks it should now. For various reasons, this sex act makes me uncomfortable and I do not wish for it. Anyway, he gets hurt and sometimes angry when I turn him down. This makes me question for whom is he actually doing it?

I agree the SF thing needs to be addressed and I'm not sure how. I've never felt like a depository; however, I do feel a lot of pressure to fulfill that need even when I am tired or distracted.

Maybe she feels that if she gives in, you'll just want it more often????

That's where I'm at a loss...she says that hopefully during counseling something that's said will "click"...snap her out of it...

Well I've thought about it...we're Orthodox Christians and we've both been to counseling with our Pastor...he was the one to recommend our current MC, because he felt there were "deep seeded" issues with her that he wasn't qualified to counsel and that it was more than a communication/need issue after talking with her privately...

He's told me to give it time before I make any life changing decisions. So honestly I'm going to give it until the fall...maybe next spring...if things don't improve, I'll request a separation from our Bishop and seek legal counsel.

So I'm at a cross roads, I have to somehow give up my top EN's and let her work whatever it is she has to work out in therapy...

But it sucks when you think for weeks that everything's going great...no arguments, no AO's or DJ's...we're all getting along and right when you think it's safe to get back into the water...bam, she turns into Mrs. Hyde and makes you feel like your worthless...

I don't want to turn into a paranoid thinking his wife is cheating...I've discussed this with our therapist privately and she said she doesn't get the feeling or see any indication that she is cheating...and I've did a little snooping, nothing major, but still....

then again, I knew this was how she was when I married her, so really it's my fault...i really shouldn't be complaining
No, she doesn't...

no, she knows me better than that...for example when we were trying to have kids...she wanted it every night, but it was often difficult for me, because I didn't need it every night...2 nights in a row and I'm good for awhile, but not that I can't perform every night, she just has to be more aggressive/creative in the foreplay department...she can't just come to bed and lay there and say "let's have sex"...

I'm totally fine with SF once a week and maybe twice a week...and I don't bug her about sex every day, nor do I walk around moping and resentful...i just suppress it and eventually after you hear the excuses enough Ill AO...I ain't going to lie...

Our therapist and Pastor have counseled her in how she should approach how she responds to my initiating of sex...a blunt "NO" in a hateful tone, doesn't sit well....and I understand...if she's tired, she's tired...head ache, stomach ache, back ache, a crick in her neck, that time of the month, busy with school, but why can't she say..."I'm really not in the mood (**insert excuse here**), but Friday night, I'll make it up to you"...simple...no hard feelings and everyone's happy...

oh, I'm sorry...I made it out like I found something...LOL...I didn't find anything...and I just check through her cell phone and internet history, she doesn't delete anything...

she does have her own personal yahoo email account that I don't know the password to, but if she logs into it, I can see it from the internet history log and it's always been "messages 0"...

Mr. Anderson, Dr. Harley's radio show this Monday had a great segment in the first half hour about depression:

http://richwith.com/mb/MB_061410.mp3

Dr. Harley talks directly with a depressed woman about treatment.

thanks...listening to it now!

To reply to another thread:


No, it's a DJ to put it in " marks. Indicating that this isn't how she should feel - or that there is something wrong with her feeling this way. You are belittling her very REAL feelings when you state them this way.

Respectfully stating what she feels is to say: My wife feels she has no identity.

There is a big difference between that and she "thinks" (mocking her thinking) she has "no identity" (mocking her view of herself because it doesn't agree with what you think of her)

Any time you use the word SHOULD with your spouse it is a DJ. By stating what her therapist thinks as a support to your argument, you are tacitly agreeing with him that she 'should' not care what others perceive of her. So basically you're faming this as you and her therapist against what she actually percieves of the world. You and the therapist are 'right' and she is 'wrong'.

Now your therapist can say this - because he has no interest in building romantic love with your wife and doesn't care about his love bank balance with her. But you do.

If you care about your wife and want to build romantic love you will respectfully phrase your opinion in a way that is NOT a DJ.

Mr. A.,
if I'm reading your posts about your wife correctly, it sounds like she feels she has no identity because she's a SAHM. If that is the case, and it's causing (or adding to) her depression, then maybe at least part of the solution is her going back to work and putting the kids in daycare or the care of trusted relatives.

Both of you working and your kids in daycare is far from optimal, it's true. But your wife does your kids little good as a SAHM if she's depressed and complaining about her life. It would be better for the kids to see their mother happier even if they only see her part of the day. SAHMotherhood does not work for all women, especially those whose identity is tied up in a career. Staying home with kids usually makes such women miserable, and the rest of the family usually suffers as a result.

Of course in this economy, finding a new job will take time and so will arranging good daycare-in the short term, perhaps antidepressants will help her.

As of this school year, all of our kids will be in school...my wife also is finishing up her degree online and will be starting a master's program next spring. so there's a plan in place to ease her back into the workforce after being a SAHM for the past 9 years.

As I stated in a previous post, lost in another thread...thanks to Vibrissa...My wife was considerable torn between being a SAHM and a career wife and mom...I knew when I agreed to her wanting to be a SAHM that this decision was going to be challenging at times...don't get me wrong, she's the best SAHM any woman could have been and I couldn't have picked a better woman to be the mother of my kids... and she's happy that she was able to be a SAHM and I'm proud that I was able to support our family...

But off and on, she would have bouts of depression...at first I didn't recognize what depression looked like...I was thinking of the commercials (woman in bed crying all day, suicidal...ect)...so hind sights 20/20...I was trying to fix problems instead of just listing...Then again, I'm not sure how closely tied depression is to genetics...b/c my wife's mom is Bipolar as well as one other aunt.

Any little thing can trigger my wife's depression...this last bout started after looking for a title to a car and assuming her name wasn't on the title (her name was on the title)...she got depressed and started the no identity speech...

But here's the kicker though MacNut...I'm no idiot, I know my wife...anything she chooses in life will not make her happy...she's too caught up with how she perceives other people view her...As a SAHM, that wasn't glamorous enough to tell someone she just met...she felt it was belittling...she realizes though (which is weird) how valuable this time was for the development of our kids...NOW, she will pursue her degree/masters degree and she will become that career woman she always wanted...BUT everything comes at a price MacNut...the career choice she is wanting "Global Business Management" with a masters in "Business Law" could leave her with more responsibility outside of family...she could (hopefully not), find herself in a position that requires long hours and/or frequent trips out of town...which means, time away from family life...missing those baseball games, soccer games and gymnastic tournaments...

My wife worked for about 6 months for a dentist office...she started out assisting part-time and then she was offered a fulltime working the front desk and managing the doctors schedule...it was great hours...9am to 4:30pm...with every Friday off and she made very good money and got frequent bonus'...again, the position wasn't good enough, she didn't feel the job fit her, and once again, she alluded that she didn't like telling people that she "worked in a dentist office"...and she would comment how she could not understand how those that worked there enjoyed it, knowing they had "no future"...

Then my wife will look at me and say..."like you, don't you want to be CEO of the company you work for...how can you be satisfied just being a mechanical designer...!!!??? That's so you to be content"...LOL...first I love my job, the responsibility is just right...I make decent money, off work at 3:30pm...rarely work overtime, no weekends and no beeper tied to my waist...I LOVE my job and really don't care what others think of what I do, and could care less about any upper management position and have to deal with the BS that comes with it...

My wife will do what she wants...she won't listen to my input or value my opinion...she'll pick the job that'll wow her family and friends and complain about how much she is missing from the lives of our kids and get depressed...the cycle continues...The same thing happens socially...she will take on too much responsibility at her "moms church group", then complain about it...

Well, I am just a voice from the peanut gallery here but it sounds to me like you are kind of judging the way your wife feels instead of trying to understand it. Respect, achievement and recognition are very real needs for people, but some feel much more need for them than others. Just because she feels she needs them more than you doesn't make her wrong. Maybe you need other things more than she does (like sex, for example!) The difficulties she's had show how hard it can be for women to both raise children and also fulfill their career dreams and goals, if they are unlucky enough to be among those women who really desire both.

Your wife sounds like someone with a lot of drive. That can actually be a very positive quality, but I think if I had her personality and I had to stay home with kids all day, I might feel depressed too! It's a choice she made, but that doesn't make it easy. But if she's been hearing you say she shouldn't want other things, that probably makes it even worse for her, because not only is her situation unsatisfying,, but she feels like her husband doesn't understand her at all.

Maybe between the two of you it would be possible to brainstorm a way to get her needs met which will make both of you happy?

THIS is the vibe I'm getting too.

Unfortunately Mr. A seems to only want to see his wife as the enemy and then wonders why he can't get anywhere.

I have yet to see you address the issue of your DJs against your wife, Mr. A.

I assure you, if you're doing them here - you're doing them to her. If you're DJing her you will never get any progress.

The solution isn't for her to change the way she feels, but for you to change the way you interact with her. Your whole last post was a DJ against her. The disrespect you feel for her rolls off the screens in waves whenever you talk about her - and I KNOW she feels it.