(((Mamasita)))

Grats on finishing the book! Man you guys got through that fast. I am so glad that you've decided to make the changes to go from renters/ freeloaders to buyers. Having gone through it, I can say that it will take time as you learn new habits and get rid of old ones. Sometimes it may feel unnatural. But the benefits you will reap will be SOOOO worth it.

I noticed in his thread he mentioned his first two EAs were online through online gaming. Does he currently play any MMOs? I'm not the most qualified on dealing with the affairs in your relationship, but I just want you to know that I'm here for y'all in any way I can be.

Now go enjoy those kiddos and have a great Easter!

no real mmo's . there is a war game with army dudes but nothing near the fantasy game- it was called everquest and then also world or warcraft to some degree gone now. more in the mornin. gotta love up my kids before bed.

also the third affair - the LA PA- was begun thru mmporgs(everquest) and the fourth was to a large part thru myspace- which he knew i hated and got an account "as a joke" and computer im's. so the computer has some ways been my arch enemy. and he is very saavy. i think we are finally getting alot of the computer habits under control now tho.

I still play one MMOG, but its so vastly differnt then the rest. I play EVE with a group of people, that I have been gaming with for a long while, also mamasita has access to everything having to do with them.

I dont play it like I used to play everquest... not even close. I can elaborate if you want, but its not the same as sitting up all night by myself. When I play eve, its usually for an hour or two a week, and always during the day when people are around.

the LA PA was probably with a married woman and was never exposed to her husband. she also was still on his contact list in im's when the last affair was busted in early feb. 2007. this first PA was in 2005. should i try to find out who ow's bh is?i would want to know and feel betrayed by people who knew and didn't tell me.

way less video games. the everquest was bad.

Papa, the one who gets to say if this game is OK in your relationship is Mama. You should use the POJA to clear it up with her. Please keep in mind that your online gaming could be a trigger to Mama since it has been previously used as a method to conduct As.

Additionally, even though you may feel it is safe now, you don't want to put yourself in a position where you have to prove yourself. It's like a recovering alcoholic who normally should stay away from bars no matter how strong they feel about their recovery.

I wish the best to the two of you.

--ElCamino72

well , as i said this video game is not the same as the other one. for one thing it's abunch of family military guys.

so what about the question of exposing the married ow. and about disrespectful judgements on papsitas thread- when i ask what was he thinking when he started the affairs- i mean that literally- not judgementally. what feelings was he experiencing. what did he tell himself to justify this happening. because i do not want it to happen again.

i guess what dr. harley is saying is the affair happened because he made himself vulnerable to it. that makes sense. but i want to know what needs these other women met. what was i missing. why did he stay up all night playing video games instead of spend his time with me? is this disrespectful?

Hola Mama,

I'll try to share some of the little experience that we've gained working the MB program. Again, take my comments with a grain of salt since I am still very green at this.

I'll defer to the more experienced folks on this one.

The easiest way to avoid getting LBd by his thread is to stay away from it. That way he can get help without having to worry about LBing you. Same reason why the Harleys don't do MC with both spouses at the same time.

Mama, I am a BS and for a couple of months following DDay I was trying to figure out exactly the same questions that you have. I can tell you that trying find some deep individual explanation to an A is a dead end. No matter how you look at it, it boils down to a simple answer: your partner did not have boundaries to protect your relationship from intruders.

He committed the ultimate selfish act and betrayed you to satisfy his need - as simple as that. What feelings was he experiencing? Infatuation, a rush or possibly "love". He was addicted to having a person meet his intimate emotional needs. What did he tell himself to justify it? Pretty much anything that could convince himself to continue with his selfish act. Think of it as a drug addict. They'll put everything on the line to get their fix and make all kind of irrational justifications. Trying to go beyond that in my experience proved to be a moot point.

When I first got into this site, my first search was about the reasons whay people have As. Initially I didn't buy into the poor boundaries explanation. I was expecting a list of deep psychology explanations where I could pick the one that will match my unique case. After reading numerous threads, articles by the Harleys and SAA, I realized that at their core, all infidelity cases are shockingly similar. This means that the mindset of WS doesn't have much to do with the individual but it is more about the anatomy of an A.

What you need to prevent this from happening again is not directly related to Papa's feelings or justifications while he was having an A. What can prevent this from happening again is working with the MB tools in looking forward with your relationship. If you both follow the MB program, this should not happen again regardless of what happened in the past.

The ENs that are normally met in an A are the intimate ones: Affection, Conversation, Recreational Companionship and Sexual Fullfillment. So these women were more than likely satisfying these needs. When it comes to the online games, it probably started as RC then intimate conversation. Then it turned into virtual SF until a PA was reached. He got hooked into getting his needs met via the video games which made him spend countless hours playing.

Please note that this is not about something that you were missing. It was about Papa letting other women meet his ENs. You may not have been meeting those needs for him but that is no justification for his A. He should have let you know that his needs were not being met and not look outside. So don't blame yourself. You may have contributed 50% of the relationship problems but the A is 100% his fault.

I'd add that your renters agreement did not help your situation. But I am not going to beat on a dead horse. Just hope that you guys make a plan to solve your commitment status.

--ElCamino72

Have you read up on triggers at all Mamasita? I wouldn't be surprised if the video games cause you to trigger, as they were something that facilitated his affairs. Triggers need to be dealt with so you can recover.

Papa's gaming being ok because it 'isn't as bad' as Everquest is a RENTER'S mentality. His gaming affects you and your family. Don't settle for 'not as bad'. You need to be ENTHUSIASTIC about this. Now DH and I are HUGE gamers. We've recently given up WoW (we just don't have time for it anymore) and really miss it. We still play Xbox when we can. Thing is, we've POJA'ed the gaming. We are both comfortable and enthusiastic about its place in our lives.

If any of the military guys' wives play I'd still be concerned. There was a husband and wife couple we played WoW with. The wife still managed to have an EA with another player and she was sitting right next to her husband during most of her play time.

I wouldn't worry so much about what EN's the OW provided. He CHOSE to allow them to meet his needs. Your time would be better spent identifying his CURRENT ENs and work to fill those - paying particular attention to the 4 intimate ones: Affection, Conversation, Recreational Companionship, and Sexual Fulfillment - you should be the only one filling those. Don't only find out WHAT his needs are, but find out HOW best to fill them. My DH and I both have Affection as a top need, but I prefer loving notes and little treats and he prefers hugs and cuddling. I could write DH all the love notes I want, it's not going to mean as much as just holding him when he gets home. Meet his needs the way he wants them met.

As far as an affair happening again. Papa needs to put in place some Extreme Precautions, or is it Extraordinary Protections (I can't remember what EP stands for) to ensure that another inappropriate relationship never develops.

Some examples could be:
No friendships with women.
No discussing relationship problems with other women.
The computer will only be used in common family areas i.e. living room/ kitchen, etc.
Going to bed at the same time (avoid the possibility of him staying up late into the night with the computer).

He needs to develop this list for you to feel secure with him.

yep. we put those EP's in place, that's why i feel better about it. i want to talk about all of this more but i need more time so i will try to get back about this later today. thanks for your response. you're pretty great vibrissa. just very helpful practical advice and you seem pretty positive and happy in your relationship- i need advice from a good role model like you.

okay, since i've got a little time i think i'll give you a little more of the scoop. as soon as the affairs were found out, big changes began to be made. first off, he gave up his passwords. there were no more his account/her account. after that, there was only our account. the myspace password was given up as that is where some contact and the actual intitial contact and phone #sharing with PA#2.

the video game- which was WOW by that time was given up within the first week as that proved to be a big trigger for me. one of NPC's in the game actually had the same in-game name as PA#1- the LA PA as i will hence forth refer to it to.


also the phone- a blackberry leftover as a souvenir from the porn industry job and used extensively for both PAs - was destroyed in an angry outburst. HE destroyed the day i found out about the affair in what seemed like a fit but i later after i thought about it was designed to destroy evidence.

i also was given access to his trillian im messages. in that , i read almost a complete history of the affair with the last girl. it ended the day i found out. he also wrote her a no-contact letter thru my-space that i approved and watched him send. she sent an "i hate you letter back" it could have all been staged i thought. but i snooped, and gained no eveidence so i tend to believe my partner. althought there were a few suspicious blog entries on her myspace. i spied on that extensively for like year. i felt that was maybe counterproductive to me healing. because I was not maintaining no contact and had a hard time putting it out of my mind. i think no contact was maintained forever on with the no -contact letter

this was another precaution we made. also over that year, we cut off friendships with a lot of toxic friends that knew ow#2 or encouraged the affirs. this was a processs
we also moved the computer to a common area.

the ow were not given no-contact letters as there relationships had faded away over time. i don't know if that is actually good enough or not. i am wondering if i should take the effort to try to contact these ow if that would be a waste of time. should i try to tell their parents, their current lovers, or in the case of the LA PA- i think she was married. i would want to know

Ha! Thanks =-). I'm all about practical advice - The nice words are great and all but sometimes I just wanna know what I can DO.

Sounds like you are doing a lot of things right. If one of his OW was married you need to let OW's H know. He has a right to know the truth about his life and protect himself. I would try to find him and give him a call. It would be helpful if you have evidence you can give him should he ask for it.

As far as the other OW I would hesitate to send a NC letter if NC has already been in place for a while. That's the advice I've seen given around here in the past.

Regarding the myspace - is his page still active? Part of him removing the things that facilitated his affairs would be removing the myspace page.

Good for you all on removing those toxic friends. You need friends that will be friends to your relationship and marriage (when you get there).

Finally, I wanted to link Mark's thread on managing memories and triggers, in case you haven't read it yet.

any other people i should let know
and- you so give me very good practical advice. i amsure i have more questions. i try to write em as they come up for me. i'll be back later on and write more. thanks again

That I can think of, no - and bring of the questions - if I can't answer I'll yell for help, lol.

so how do i find out who her husband is. i have her name maybe some phone numbers associated with her work or something. a fake phone with a st.paul phone that my partner admits was her phone.

also, the other girls, i don't know if they were married . should i try to find out. also what about the women's parents. i know i once was hit on by a married man when i was about 20- i know it was wrong and i feel somewhat like this teaches me - it never went very far. he came over to my house uninvited one time and i did not send him home like i should have. the point is , his wife told my parents and after that , i never wanted anything to do with married men ever again. should i tell their parents if i think they influence them. should i tell their current boyfriends what slime balls they are. should i tell their teen-age children. or is this harassment and should i just let it alone since i know it's over.

anyway, how do i find the ow's husband. any ideas?

i also have some e-bay proof that she sent my hubbie some money for something. but all these names are mostly fake computer pseudo-names. even the real name she gave might be a fake name asw i cannot seem to find anything about her on google. what could i ask my partner to do to help me with this?

Try pipl.com. It's a pretty cool (free) site for tracking down info on people.

Have you asked papasita who OW's husband is?

yes i have. he says he does not know. he says ow said they were separated. but he probably told her the same thing and i know that's wasn't true.

i think he could find out easier than me. should i ask him to?
what about the other ow and possibly their parents. cause i think they might care. i would want to know if my daughter did that with a man she knew was married.

papasaita has been too busy to work on this or really talk to me about anything the last few days. i know this is making me unhappy. i have told him this. that he needs to spend time talking to me evry day.