Ditto these fine folk.

while this M may still be salvageable, this is definitely a time as a friend of mine says, to start getting your water fowl in a linear arrangement.

unblock the cuz, keep your cards close to your vest, keep your nose clean, and go have a long soak in the tub (or whatever it is that calms your nerves)!

Oh goodie, are we compiling a list of pithy whatchacallit statements?

Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer.

A fool's mouth is his undoing, and his lips are a snare to his soul.
Give him enough rope to hang himself.

He who guards his mouth and his tongue keeps himself from calamity.
Speak little, hear much.

It is better to keep your mouth closed and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.

- Abraham Lincoln

Momma always said, stupid is as stupid does

- Forrest Gump

Shut don't go up, prices do, so take my advice and shut up too.

- smart aleck girl in my elementary school

Why does someone with antisemetic opinions marry someone who is Jewish? I just don't understand.

I wonder - Was this something which cropped up during the marriage or did he feel this way beforehand?

Either way it's very hurtful. Sorry about all of this OH. I hope you can take care of your job issue quickly so you can turn your full attention and energy to your M (if that's what you decide to do.)

Tiring (boring) day at the office.

Had the chance to re-read the texts in more leisure. Definite references from cousin's exH about "hebes", definitely referencing the exW and her family (defining them as (state)Hebes...not the state where I live). H not responding in kind but not defending or suggesting exCuz stop either. Just laughing along, yuk, yuk, yuk...which I still find offensive, BTW.

Lots of references from exCuz to H about being a "stupid Irish Mick" (exCuz is Irish too) and laughing back and forth about that. But to me, that's like ME joking about my heritage or the city where I grew up (WC Fields made a living poking fun at it) but it NOT being ok for someone else to do that.

I can't really forward the emails without tipping my hand. The way I read them again was to grab H's phone, take pictures w/ my phone and then today at work, I enlarged them on the computer screen so I could read them at a more leisurely rate and be sure who said what. It's not that clear when you read it on the phone.

After a mini AO last night when I again stated I was not happy, he sat down and tried to make me feel better...telling me I was this, that and the other thing(s) that he admires and how he knows I'll handle the work thing, etc. I'm just reporting the facts here..I'm not opining on them.

Today I came home, tired. Pulled in behind H in the driveway. He had to go to/from daughter's soccer practice, parent meeting ,pick up son from LAX. I made sure I ran a few errands on my way home so that I wouldn't be tempted to volunteer to do some of this stuff myself!

I'm not even out of the car when he tells me that our son isn't happy because of one thing, and the daughter is upset about another thing and I almost laughed out loud because when I was the SAHM and he came home from work, he would get very upset if I did that!

So I'm in the kitchen unloading some grocery bags (Trader Joe's is close to the office and not to my house, so I always make a point of going there on my way home), and he says "what's wrong". I *hate* when he asks me this because sometimes I can't really sum it up in 15 words or less, or I'm just feeling generally tired or melocholy (sp) or there is something specific bothering me and I can't figure out how to say it in a non LB way.

So I did what I usually do when I gather my thoughts and started with "well, you know..." and he said (in a mimic tone of my voice) "no, I don't know"... ugh. He will always pick apart my choice of words...drives me nuts.

I try to tell him that it's hard for me to share O&H if I'm worried I'm going to use the wrong word. He says "let's not go down that path tonight, I don't want to fight." I say "I don't want to fight either. Do you want to hear what's wrong, even if I can't accurately or succinctly sum it up, or would you rather pass?" That gets him aggravated ("I wouldn't have asked if I didn't want to know") And I said "well I'm not sure I can really put my finger on just ONE thing, and I'm offering you a choice...listen politely and supportively to me while I verbally sort through my feelings, or choose not to at this time and that's ok, too. What's not ok is you interrupting me for my choice of words or judging how I'm feeling."

And he said "look I'm not going to fight with you tonight, no matter how hard you want to pick a fight."

Me: Ok

Him: Let's not go down that path.

Me: Can we try to agree to use the "I" statments?

Him: No, I can't use them!

Me: I've got to grab those biscuits out of the oven and look, the news is on..I'm sure you don't want to miss watching it.

Because the love bank was full.

No. That's not it.

The Love Bank was full. But the paranoia wasn't there then.

The paranoia is there, and its getting worse. Everything that is important to him as a man has been stripped away. And since if it was HIS FAULT, HE would be to Blame. So you externalize it, and it becomes the fault of "Others".

And that "other" could be Jewish, or Afro-American, or illegal immigrant, or whatever. The fact that you are part of his targeted group is because ultimatly, he is ANGRY with you.

The vortex sucks you down...

He loses his job, and all the self-worth that goes with that goes out the window. It is a tramautic experience. He starts to slide down the slippery slope. Some find ways to stop the slide. Many do. But some, no matter what can't seem to shake it.

And they start going deeper. The vortex spins them closer to the middle and down....

They can only take a job that was similar to the prestige and stature of thier previous position. A position that even if all things were the same, no longer exists. It been shipped overseas, or technology has eliminated that need, or whatever.

But it can't be THIER fault.

The vortex spins faster.....

Those around them try to "understand" and "its a phase"... Yes, it is for some. The trauma hurts, and then you have to live without that arm that was cut off. Learn how to live in this new world, where everything is different. We start apologizing for them, making excuses for thier issues that they refuse to address. It happens slowly, this slide. But it starts to pick up speed.

The self-loathing HAS to come out. It just can not stay inside, and it NEEDS to express itself somehow...

And the spouse gets alot of the anger. And then it starts going to completly unrelated things like racial and gender groups.

The vortex actually strats to swallow them.....

OH? You are in a very difficult place. Your H needs some good counseling to address this spiral that he is in. He CAN stop it.

But this spiral keeps him from working. From participating. From fully engaging.

Your ExCuz simply offers him an outlet.

((((OH))))

LG

Unfortunately, either because of the vortex or because he's had crappy counselors, IC hasn't done much for him. He was on various combos of ADs for a while, but has sworn off all of them.

What you type makes perfect sense.

I can't fix it.

I'm working my plan. I will continue to work the MB program at the same time because bottom line, it will improve me.

At some time in the not-too-distant future, I hope I will be able to say "ok, I'm secure with my job now (maybe a new job, if I'm lucky!) and I'm moving on. You can fix yourself and come with me or stay here."

Or scenario #2 is that he gets a job which will afford me the financial luxury of stating the same thing.

But right now, 90% of my effort is focused on trying to stabilize my job situation while finding a more secure opportunity.

LG, you're dead on about the job sitch where he's concerned. That was a huge part of why he was not working for 2-3 years after he lost the "big" corporate job and why he's hitting walls now. I've had some tremendous response to my LI blast and many of them are from friends and former work associates who have branched out (often after losing jobs!) to become entrepreneurs and would really love to have me come on board to join them. In a perfect world, I would *love* to do this...it really fits my work style to a "T". I'm a self starter who doesn't like to be bound by limitations simply to satisfy another person's need to for control. I work efficiently, effectively and *always* over-deliver! So I've got a great personality type to be in biz for myself.

The problem for me right now is that I need a steady income. So I can take on projects after hours and free lance (which I've done), but can't dive in headfirst and become a partner. I've mentioned some of this opp to H but the response has been what I expected. Somehow, he's stuck on the notion that his value and expertise is too "valuable" to "give away". He doesn't see the end game. LG's vortex description provides an explanation. Possibly, if he were working all this time, he would have a sense of his own value and not need a fancy title and a paycheck to validate it.

I've given up trying to convince him. His loss.

My alanon sponsor and I were talking a while back about alcoholics and jobs. Turns out your DH's attitude is VERY common among alcoholics. She was tellingme about one unemployed alcoholic whose complaint was always, "I can't get a good job." That is, until his sponsor said, "Then get a crappy job."

Here's a different perspective for you that may help you feel better about your own job situation. You have the confidence of knowing that you can support yourself and your family without anyone's outside support, even your husband's. What a great position to be in when you are considering leaving!

While my own situation is looking up, and divorce is probably not a likely scenario for me, I admit there have been many times in the past when I just wanted to throw in the towel and be done with it. One of the things that stopped me, and stops many women, is the dependence on our husbands. That is one less hurdle for you if push came to shove right now. You know you have what it takes to endure even a crappy job in order to provide. What a gift!

OK, back to that grindstone, woman!


(((OH)))


P.S. I know I haven't been posting long, but I was following your story way back as a luker and I think you are making tremendous personal progress. You inspire me.

LG, that was a very helpful description - the "vortex" you spoke about.

I'm no professional but it seems to line up perfectly with the behaviors OH is describing.

I may have witnessed some (or a similar form) of this "vortex" when my H retired from the military. He was used to being "in charge" of many many people. He wasn't able to find a position in the civilian sector for almost a year due to the economic contraction which the US experienced....and then when he found a position, it wasn't one where he was "in charge" of many people...I mean, he'll get there if that's what he wants, but it will take him some time...The thing is - he went from being "in charge" to being "not in charge" and it seemed to hurt his pride. During the unemployed / underemployed period, he responded by eating and not exercising and his AOs increased.

Not to say that this exact dynamic is what OH is describing but I think it's similar in the way that workplace status affects a man's pride and may send him into a downwardly spiraling vortex.

SH summed it up accurately as well by using the analogy of H being in a rowboat with just one oar.

The problem is, the rowboat he's in...I am not able to provide that other oar yet. He's got to do his own rowing with both oars for a bit before I can help out.

That's the thing about marriage and family. If one party has a problem, everyone does...but if the problem can only be addressed by the person who has the problem & they will not do that - we're all stuck.

When I got here, I also only had one oar in the water. (no jokes about "one fry short of a happy meal" or "elevator doesn't go to the top floor" etc. please

The people here helped me find my other oar and start rowing to get somewhere.

So, what's your next step OH? Take care of the job sitch 1st?

OH, not only is he not using both oars, but the boat ya'll are in is taking on water, and even your rowing is not enogh to keep it from sinking.

Time for a new boat.

And by that I don't necessarily mean divorce.

Plan B. Get out of the boat, so he can sink with it, and let him learn to swim on his own so that when/if he ever joins you in YOUR NEW BOAT he'll be more than just a passanger providing ballast.

OK, I'm gonna stop with the analogy before I take it too far

That's how I feel a lot of the time. I do not want the marriage I am currently in, even though it is not the worst marriage in the world. I want the best marriage I can have. Preferably with the husband I'm currently married to. After all, he's the father of my kids and he will always be family for that reason. May as well have the best marriage with him.

I just had another crisis hit me and yes, how the kids are being affected.

Need to take some time to figure out WTF to do.

{{{{{OH}}}}}}

Always feel free to email me offline if you need an ear and can't post it here.

Ditto. You've got my email address OH.

Another crisis?

I'm sorry OH.

((((OH))))