Markos, are you seriously trying to pit LA aganst MB?

It is ALWAYS ok to be O&H with your spouse. that is totally MB all the way. But it is NOT okay to LB. And I think if I find myself in a stuation where my O&H can potentially be a LB to my spouse, I tread VERY lightly, if at all.

And if I tread in such a way that I LB, it wasn't a mistake if I learned something. Then I can look at exactly WHAT I learned, what my MOTIVATIONS were, then humbly tell my spouse that I was wrong, WHY I was wrong, WHAT I have learned, and ask for help and direction in how I should correct the problem in the future. See, even our mistakes are not the end of the world and can actually be a path to even greater intimacy with each other.

Your wife likely feels very vulnerable right now. I bet if yoiu show her a bit of your own vulnerability in a tone that is humble and not angry, it would make the world of difference.

Ask for forgiveness. And forgive yourself.

I just want to know if LA's approach is MB, or if LH's approach is MB.


Okay, what Love Buster did I commit? I didn't demand anything, I didn't judge her, I didn't get angry. I simply calmly let her know that my love bank is empty. All I said was that one sentence, in a calm and respectful tone.

So since calling her is in my plan, do I do it anyway? Or do I not do it because of her request?

So don't call her today....... Normally I'd suggest active listening in a scenario like this to get to the root of some feelings but really, I'd give it a rest on that. It pretty much says enough. If I remember correctly, you said that your wife's top love language was gifts. I'd spend my lunch hour picking our a thoughtful little gift and a card. In the card I'd write from my heart how much and what exactly I appreciate about her. I'd apologize for the weekend and say that I was being selfish and that I lost focus. I'd end it by saying how much I love her and leave it at that.......

Don't call her. Get her a little treat, something small. Pick a flower, her favorite candy - anything. Don't give it to her with any fanfare, just leave it on her pillow or some other place she'd notice it.

I want you to see, Markos, that she IS trying. She was there for that board game you played. So what if you didn't say anything, so what if she couldn't bring herself to touch you. SHE WAS THERE! She played the game with you. Her natural instinct would probably be to go watch TV and de-stress and not deal with the marriage. Instead she went out of her comfort zone, and played that game with you.

Because it didn't go the way YOU wanted (because you're not yet in intimacy) You allowed it to drain your LB. Instead of seeing what she DID do, you focused on what she DIDN'T do. After she put herself out there AGAIN you accuse her of draining your love bank. Her effort didn't even register.

THAT is why telling her what you did was a Love Buster. You were too focused on YOU and your needs you completely lost track of HER - you know, where your focus SHOULD be.

She is not comfortable filling your love bank because any time she makes an attempt at doing anything remotely close to it, it isn't enough for you and you shoot her down.

SEE what she is DOING. Recognize it and appreciate her for it. Appreciate that she played that game with you, and maybe she might just do it again, but next time she might smile. She may have been enthusiastic intellectually about spending time with you, but when it came down to it her walls went up. BUT SHE STILL DID IT.

It's going to take time, Markos. Recognize the little steps you're taking along the way.

The answer is BOTH. LA, I hope I'm not overstepping if you read this. But I believe she said it's OK to communicate PROPERLY and vunerably. And Markos, IF YOU CAN DO THAT, there is nothing wrong with that. Putting it out there that you feel frustrated is totally legit, but you told us that you put it out there that you were frustrasted and she or because she wasn't meeting your needs. If you were able to frame that without a lovebuster to a spouse in windrawal/conflict then you deserve the Nobel Prize because I don't think YOU can. I'm all for openess and honestly and think it's a must but how you exercise that is a whole different story.


Then on top of that your request for a physical touch, while I presume y'all were in the shower, but then covering it by saying it'd not sexual, to me, that was overboard. To me, you set yourself up for failure there. Again, to me, that was totally selfish and I sure the heck wouldn't have #1 trusted that it wasn't sexual and #2 desired to intimately touch you at that moment.......

And now she says:

And Markos, I'd say the exact same thing as her on that. It is depressing to put forth effort and not see it mattering. Especially when we all know that's totally BS. Go back and read where y'all were 2 weeks ago and read your words of hope and love. Y'all were and are making progress. But now you slam it to the extremes........

And again, I offer, my e-mail is wbill70@yahoo.com if you ever want to take something off the boards feel free to do so. Heck, you could get a couple of guys emails and do this.....

Covering it? I want affection. My wife hasn't met my need for affection in the last several days. I want her to touch me affectionately, non-sexually.

I think you're getting the idea that I was requesting sexual touch and then trying to pretend that isn't what I wanted. I assure you that is simply not the case.

I just want my wife to put her hands on me affectionately when we're together.

Those are two separate nights, by the way. Sunday night was the request for affection. Monday night was my statement about my love bank being empty.

I'm still not getting an answer as to what love buster it was for me to simply say, calmly, "Your account in my love bank is empty."

I had a complaint. I mistakenly thought she might be open to the complaint. She wasn't.

Markos - we were posting about the same time. Did you see my post up above?

and it was a DJ for you to assume your wife has no plan.

As far as requesting affection, if you want it non-sexually, asking for it in the shower is probably not the best time to avoid getting that association.

A better way would be to say: I am needing some affection. Would you be willing to hug me or hold my hand the next couple of days? If I recall there was a moment when you were sitting on the couch and she repeatedly asked you what you were thinking and you shut down. THAT would be the time to say "I asked you to touch me in the shower because I'm feeling a strong need for affection. It doesn't need to be sexual but I need to be touched. Would you mind hugging me or holding my hand, if not now, then maybe over the next few days?"

Just because y'all have gone over your ENs doesn't mean she knows automatically WHEN and HOW you need those needs met in any given situation. She isn't a mind reader. Over time she'll get better at this but you can't expect it to happen over night.

Don't point up her lack of affection over the last few days - I'm sure she's aware of your affection situation. Just tell her you need something and tell her how you'd like it and let her do with that information what she will.

That is a respectful request- in fact it is one DH frequently makes of me because I'm not a big toucher.

My bad, bad choice of words on my part...... I apoligize. But seriously, you don't have to convince me, it's her that'll need convincing....lol....

Words of Affimation are my biggies. I've found that if we are ever in withdrawal or conflict, I don't get those. My choice is to pout, demand, or do acts worthy of her kind words. Only to do something worthy, I have to speak her love language. Funny thing, when I do that, she ends up speaking mine...... Anywho, back to the grindstone and focus. Markos, you can do this, you've shown us you can, no JUST DO IT.....

ROFL!!!!! I don't think there's a man alive who could pull that off!

Markos, I really feel for you, because I feel I am in much the same place. I know that at some point I'm going to have to come clean with my spouse and tell him that even though I'm going through all this change to meet his needs, it's not because I'm "in love" with him, but because I'm committing myself to that caring love we talked about.

But there is no way I am having that conversation until he has been firmly in the intimacy stage for a while, and I've practice being O&H about less threateneing topics.

To add a little more, my plan of action with regard to my EN is to ask in small and specific ways. To make thoughtful requests that I know are achievable for my husband. Because right now he probably feels like he can't do anything right for me, so why bother. He needs to feel a little more self-confidence. Giving him the monunmental task of filling my love bucket until I'm in love with him is more than anyone in his shoes (or your wife's shoes) can handle without proper motivation. My job is not to blame my husband for his lack of motivation, or even his lack of MB terminology. Just because you and your wife are both "speaking the language" doesn't mean either of you has any semblence of fluency yet.

From Lost Husband:

Complaints = good! Yet, you can't just throw them out there willy-nilly and have any hope in h*ll to have it land in a constructive way!

The complaints article lists some guidelines your complaint didn't really live up to:
- First, state your complaint as clearly as possible, guaranteeing your spouse's safety by avoiding demands, disrespect or anger. Be cheerful as you discuss the problem, and try to make it brief.

Your 'my LB is empty' was none of that - the demand is implicit because the problem is implicit. It's too general. A LB can be empty for many reasons, and the way to get it back in the black is NOT obvious from you stating it's empty. If I'm going to the doctor, it helps if I can say a little bit more than 'it hurts, it hurts!' Of course, a good doctor can find the problem anyway, but he's not sick himself & he gets paid for it! Your W has her own problems in the RL, so she's not likely to go hunting if she's stressed herself.

- Second, ask for your spouse's perspective on your problem. How does your spouse view this same situation and what might make it difficult for him or her to accommodate you?

No comment needed.

- Third, brainstorm possible solutions to the problems. Don't give or expect sacrifice because that means that one of you will be losing love units so that the other can gain them.

You didn't even get to that point.

Main thing to work on, IMO, is step 1. The cheerfulness, the picking a calm time, the probably doing a little homework in advance to make sure you can say it in a non-LB way.

That's where I think your LBs lay.

(Case in point: Do you like her 'and now I feel awful' e-mails? Probably don't put you in a more relaxed, resourceful mood, right? My guess is you freeze up, start wheelspinning in your mind, start feeling resentful because you're OBVIOUSLY giving it your all and she's NOT SEEING IT! Your 'My LB$ is empty' is exactly such a statement, only compounded by body language issues.)

Markos,

Physical affection is HUGE for me. And my husband gives little by nature, less when in withdrawel.

You have got to find ways to feel okay in these times when there is a drought. Because there will be droughts. She is as skittish as a newly weaned colt, and you are pretty nearly emotionally dry.

The "high's" have no support beams, so with any mistake, one or the other of you crashes into the ground.

Try getting a massage. Try (I know it doesn't sound MANLY, but it really does help) taking a bubble or selzer bath. Try going to work out at the local inground pool... Do anything that feels physically uplifting and it will help release that pressure so that you aren't totally dependent on a wife who feels too vulnerable to touch you.

Physically, you are starving for physical affeciton. It's almost worse probably that you've gotten some recently, because it makes you want it like that all the time.

You're not there yet.

Find ways to help yourself be patient.

She loves you, and you love her, and you guys are going to be okay. Today's level of affection is not the level for the rest of your life, and it doesn't have to be SOLVED today.

I like the idea of getting your wife a gift with a note like LH suggested. You could also try sneaking out of work early and just being with her.

Let me ask you a question: When your wife was quiet, did you allow space for her to talk if she wanted to? Did you observe gently and sweetly that she seemed quiet, and then sit quietly leaving space for her to talk? It sounds like you got a game, and tried to coax her into doing something else.

Which I understand, and which is fine--but I'm just saying... people who get quiet and can't speak (she's probably not punishing, just can't or scared to put things into words) need space and gentleness to tell you how they are feeling.

If you had paused and sat with her quietly, she might have told you "Markos, I'm scared to try again here." Or something like that.

Next time you can be together, just be quiet and invite her to speak. Every minute you can do that gently and patiently (and QUIETLY) is a minute closer to her feeling safe. Your job is to patiently wait until she is ready to share her feelings. If you get frustrated, impatient, mad, or resentful, then you are even LESS safe than if you hadn't tried.

Your job is to be safe. So invite her to talk and then be quiet.

I have a feeling (based on your posts here, and I could be wrong) that you are a talker and a make-things-happen guy. So it's hard for you to just be still with her.

Try it.

Good luck! (PS that's why I say to maybe go home early so you have some time to be with her without the kids).

Thank you everybody for shooting straight with me. I can see that I am being my marriage's own worst enemy, particularly by my impatience. I have apologized to Prisca and asked her forgiveness.

Wolf, your post was right on. I didn't do any of the stuff in the article I linked!

I'm going to shut up now and start trying to work my way back to pleasing my wife again. I'll have to save my complaints for later.

Meanwhile, yes, Vibrissa, a small gift for my wife is just the thing and is a great idea.

I got the three year old to hang onto my back last night while we were watching television, and that helped, actually. He's wired like me and also gives and appreciates physical affection really easily.


I think so, but I probably don't really know how to do that.


No, I didn't say anything like that, but I did wait quietly for her to answer. We have had a lot of these times over the years. I ask a question and wait for a long time, with no answer.


I made two or three suggestions, and she didn't answer, and I didn't know what else to do, so I started something to see if she would join in. I didn't just run right over and get the game, if that's what you mean.


And since I do tend to get that way, I am becoming more scared to try.


For how long? Just sit there, saying nothing?

Thanks, Think; that analogy makes a lot of sense.