Had another appointment with my IC. I would like to share a little about the visit here.

We talked about my triggers. Admittedly there are some triggers in my M and in some of my personal relationships which take me back to unfinished family business. (What a shcoker. lol)

There is one which I really wanted to discuss today especially since I really didn't get much advice here on how to deal with it - Although my marriage is getting better each day, my feeling that I am having to be the one who leads the way to improving my marriage continues to be a source of anger / resentment for me. (I am the oldest of 6 and I always seem to be the "Bail out woman" in the family, so yeah - it's a trigger...) I tend to focus on having to be the one who is "doing all the work" when what I should be focusing on is what I get out of my "work" - making myself a better partner & making a better marriage for myself. Also, it's not realistic to say that H isn't working on it as well. He really is.

I am also feeling anxious about this new dance we're doing in our Marriage. My IC said she's observed this in many people she counsels / counseled. She pointed out that it will take time before the new habits will become comfortable.

I shared the AO situation re/ the GPS in the car with my IC, she thought that the way I handled it and the questions I asked my H were right on target.

There's a lot more which is more than I want to get into. I am very happy with this IC. She doesn't coddle me and I find the sessions to be very helpful.

Thanks OH.

I'm no expert on that, at all, but I would think saying "I know that you do it" with no explanation would work well. Put him a little bit off guard and make him think "How does she know?"

Of course, the real answer is that you said you both knew about the other doing this and approved. So how would it blow your cover?

That's what I was thinking...but all in all I still liked the idea of having the convo separately.

I'll think about it a little more...

I tried this essentially word for word this evening:


He responded with: I'm trying to learn new things for us to try out. (Before anyone asks - let me say the sex has been fabulous however NOTHING NEW HAS BEEN INTRODUCED. NOT. A. SINGLE. THING. For me, it has more to do with my state of mind.)

Then he added that he has read from some DOCTORS how looking @ porn & using vibrators without your spouse can make a marriage better.

He also lied to me and said that his friend who sends daily porn texts doesn't send him the texts a lot. I reminded him about the online cell phone info and I stated I saw that this friend sends him multiple texts each day. He then started to question me about WHY I was looking on the online cell phone records. I told him that I look at it all the time. I check whether we are coming close to exceeding our minutes, guaging whether we can reduce our plan and possibly save some $, etc. And yes - I noticed that the friend sends video / picture texts every day many times a day. He asked me if I could see what they were. I said "Of course not. But I can see that they are video or pics and since they're from that friend I know that they're probably porn."

He referred to my earlier comments about privacy versus secrecy in marriage. I did not respond except to say "Yes, I said that." He said he thought I said I would stop looking at the cell phone records. Did I change my mind about that? I didn't have the chance to respond. He said that it (the porn) doesn't mean that much to him - he's not using the porn as a substitute for me.

I said I stopped using the vibrators without him & looking at the porn because I wanted to make myself 100% available to him sexually. I said I have enjoyed the improvement since I have stopped. And, I have come to realize that seeking sexual experiences outside of or without my spouse is wrong. He said I was only revealing this to try to force him to stop looking at porn and to tellhis friend to stop sending the texts. I said I have no expectation of anything from him. I am telling him this because I have learned to be honest with my feelings instead of pretending I am OK with something when I am not. I tried to "get over" the porn and say to myself "It's no big deal." but I couldn't. I had to admit to myself that it does bother me and now I'm admitting it to him. I hope that he considers my feelings and does soemthing about it especially since the porn means so little to him. I shared that my true feelings about the porn are: I feel hurt and threatened by the porn.

Next, my H responded to this with statements such as:


*Where there is no response from me, I decided to remain silent and he kept talking...

He also tried to gaslight me - he tried to say that I have brought up "the past" in the recent conflicts we've had but he could not give me a single example of it.

I want you all to know that I have taken great pains to NOT do that, even as he is actively doing it during a conflict...saying things to bait / mock me such as "Here's the old Chris again." and as late as today --> "Well, you've done / said ___ ___ ___ in the past."

Is this crazymaking?---> He asked me if I hoped he would stop looking at porn. I said I hoped it but I didn't expect it. He then said (and this is WORD FOR WORD) HOPE is a DEMAND.

Let me type that again:

My H actually said HOPE IS A DEMAND

For me - this indicated that I needed to find a goo way to end this conversation. So, I told him that I have to accept that this is his thinking on the issue, but I needed to be sure he knew my feelings... and that concluded the conversation.

He is now in sulk mode.



Hear are some fearful thoughts I am having. *They may or may not be DJs, so plase 2x4 me if you feel it's warranted:

My H LIES. HE IS A LIAR. I have proof of it ...irrefutable proof now. These aren't BIG lies but they are lies lies lies.
He seems to lie when cornered. I have no proof of day to day just for the heck of it lying...but darn it - HE IS A LIAR!

My H is someone who actually said HOPE is a DEMAND. I can't tell you how much that makes me sick to my stomach. Am I the only one who thinks this is freaking CRAZY? Someone, please put a positive spin on this and tell me that I am looking at this "all wrong."

Chris, wow, I wanted to post something last night to you, about my experience with my H with this, to remind you to keep your expectations super-low, but it turns out I didn't have to. You had the same experience I did. I don't think this is a battle your marriage can win with respectful persuasion. He has no incentive to acknowledge your feelings on this, and powerful powerful incentives to denigrate your view. Honestly, I don't know how anyone gets through this, except in cases like thinkin's where the guy gets disgusted with it himself. In my years here I have never once heard of a story on here where a guy changed his behavior about porn because of his wife's feelings on it. Maybe if you were coaching with the Harleys, Steve could present it in a man-to-man way. I think this subject will do nothing but make massive withdrawals and promote LBing in both of you. See, even you started saying he was "wrong," going to the DJ, instead of keeping it about how you want to find solutions that work for both of you.

I would suggest working on the other stuff. Put it in prayer, and maybe one day you'll be in a position where a man will talk to him about this. There's an awesome movie, Fireproof, that shows how big of an LB it is for many. But my H, while he enjoyed the movie, thought that that part of the movie was ridiculous and unrealistic.

Sorry, Chris, please disregard my last post altogether. Dr. H doesn't advise to let go of this and work on something else. Here's an awesome article.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5050a_qa.html

My tried and true response in a situation such as yours now is just to sit back and let it ride. You communicated with him. You touched some defensive spots. Let it sink in for your DH. He may actually come to a change of heart on his own, especially if you make the alternative (you) respectful and irresistable. He's angry right now the same way a wayward is angry when they get caught with their hand in the cookie jar. Let him cool off, and don't pick at him. Plan A for now. And don't tip your hand too much. He knows you know SOMETHING and it scares him a lot. Don't hold it over his head.

Yours is an interesting take on this NED. My thoughts are that the incentive which he has is:
-His wife has stated that she is hurt & threatened by the behavior.
-His wife has stated she changed her habits and found that it made sex with him much more enjoyable.
He can mentally confirm this by noting the uptick in sexual activity along with the quality / intensity of the experiences. (Yum!)


I'm going to keep a positive outlook on this. Last night he was downstairs for quite some time. According to EBlaster, he did not use his PC at all.

I felt relieved to be able to say what I had to say. At this point, I feel so much more comfortable now that my feelings are out in the open.

Check this out: He avoided holding me last night while we slept (this is something we've been doing fo awhile now - feels wonderful), so I put my arms around him. I asked him about that this morning while we were getting ready for work & he said he didn't feel like holding me because he's still mad. I said that I think it's interesting that last night he said that I would begin to "withold" from him because of our difference of opinion about the porn, but I'm not doing that and I don't plan to. I said that I noticed that the "witholding" is actually something he does with me when there's an unresolved conflict, but I understood that it's his process and I asked him to consider what that does to our relationship. I may have gone too far in saying all of this but I felt it needed to be said.

I asked him if he planned on telling me goodbye or was he just going to leave for work without saying goodbye to me because he's mad. He said he didn't know. I smiled and pleasantly said "OK." Then I continued to get ready for work. When it was time to leave he kissed me and hugged me. I reciprocated. I also told him "I love you." He said "I love you too." I told him to have a wonderful day.

I also called him & left a message letting him know I arrived at work like I usually do.

I plan to keep up the usual affection and I am prepared to give him even more affection.

If he visits the porn sites again & if he continues to receive the texts from his pal, I will ignore it for now. As I said to him, the decision to stop is his and his alone. I have made my feelings about it clear & that's my part of the dance.




I did not suggest we view the porn together, my suggestion was stopping - it's true; however, I don't see where I started out by DJing. Can you point it out for me NED? I thought I was doing fairly well in the conversation, but I need the info so I can improve my skills. Thanks.

I'm with think...you've said your piece, now let it swirl around in his brain. Although I don't think he's mad like a wayward who got caught doing something...I think he's mad because he's being asked to change a habit that he sees as harmless.

Go about your business and keep an eye on the keylogger.

Sorry if I was bristly the other day; I had a bad weekend and was seeing attacks under every rock. I meant to come on and say something yesterday but I wasn't in a frame of mind to be useful.

OK. Fireproof has been brought up. Dr Harley's article on porn addiction has been linked. Maybe another link to Every Man's Battle will change something but I doubt it.

Once POJA and PORH reign in the marriage, porn lessens in significance and in its draw. Porn for many men is an escape, much as romance novels are for many women. Daytime soaps exist because they are an escape for the once predominate SAHM crowd who lived vicariously through the characters on the screen on the little box in the kitchen.

Soaps are going away...More women work all day and the audience is no longer a lot of bored housewives. But with the age of the Internet, porn is not going away at all. It is finding new forms, new ways to market itself, new revenue streams that turn it into a muti-billion dollar industry.

Porn can be highly addictive. It is addictive the same way crack is addictive and the same way an affair becomes an addiction. It stimulates the pleasure centers of the brain repeatedly, reinforcing the reaction until the mere thought of the stuff triggers that reaction and when it isn't there depression, withdrawal symptoms and other negative effects manifest themselves.

So what do you do...

Meet his ENs
Avoid Love Busters

Work the MB plan.

As he learns to use POJA and PORH, then HIS attitude about porn will change.

AND as SF becomes a bigger part of the marriage then his desire for the porn will probably lessen since I don't see this as a strong addiction for him unless you have way understated the problem here for some reason.

The cycle with porn seems to be that when you aren't getting the real deal, you begin to fantasize about what might be possible. The trouble is that when you start looking at the stuff you begin to see stuff that goes way beyond anything you ever really even thought of on your own. These things appeal to our brains by stimulating us in ways we never experienced before and soon we raise our own expectations of what we want.

The problem now is that as the real thing slips away, often as the wife at first is actually relieved that she doesn't have to deal with THAT any more, then the time dwelling on the real person of his wife and this dream world of young, fit, women who will will do ANYTHING to please a man and ENJOY it themselves begins to shift to the dream land more and more.

Usually at first a man will try to get his wife to participate in something "different" than the "normal" sex of the past (which has itself all but vanished from the marriage by now. If she takes him up on the offer then he seeks the next level. If she rejects his offer he retreats back into that dark world where women never say "no" to anything no matter how disgusting , deviant or degrading it might be.

The less he gets, the more he wants. Soon he wants things he didn't know existed six months before and the regular stuff is less than adequate to satisfy his new tastes.

Part of the answer of how to get a guy to stop looking at porn is to offer him a real deal that doesn't have to be wild and crazy but consistent enough that he learns to anticipate it. It will be the anticipation that will break the cycle for most men. His thoughts will begin to turn from the pretend world stuff to fantasizing about his wife until SHE becomes the focus of his dreams and desires.

If this sounds like a familiar thing it is nothing more than the notion of the Love Bank applied to SF. You supply a stimulus, associated with you until you are the only stimulus required. It happens gradually. It happens faster if it is reinforced often enough. Before long he will desire what he knows is there more than what he knows is really not something that happens.

Take goddess lessons from Not2, borrow Believer's shoes. Buy something you wouldn't wear on a bet and cover it up with your nicest "housewife" clothes and go on a date with your husband. Give yourself plenty of time on the back end because you can expect him to want this to be prolonged. Let him "find" your new outfit later or let him stumble across it while you are at dinner or someplace. When he finds it tell him it is FOR HIM.

Here's the beauty of MB. Once you know what his buttons are (ENs) you can push them at will in order to make him fall more in love with you.

As far as hope being a demand...

Men marry women HOPING they will never change.
Women marry men HOPING they will change.
Both men and women are disappointed that some things change and some things never really do.

If he is addicted to porn and he is engaged enough in the marriage to want to change direct him to Every Man's Battle. Until he is applying POJA and PORH then just attempt to see if the porn is part of the withdrawal problem. Seduce the guy a couple of times and see what his response is. If he retreats then you have worries. If he jumps on your idea (thought I was gonna say something other than idea there didn't ya?) you know that he isn't a die-hard addict yet.

Some people use porn as an enhancer for desire. It becomes an addiction when it is the only possible source for the stimulus. Other people NEED porn to function. Some develop it to an art form. Your husband sounds like a regular guy who sees porn as a pastime. Make him an offer he can't refuse and see if you can't replace the porn in his mind with thoughts of you.

Don't do anything you are not comfortable with; that is not what I am telling you to do here. Try to attract him back from porn the way you would if he had OW you wanted to lure him back from in Plan A. You have the tools. You have the knowledge. You have the history to draw from. Make new history with him and see if he doesn't come around to your same positions.

Note: pornography comes from a word that in the koine Greek (pornea) meant to have illicit sex, usually translated as the word "fornicate" or "fornication"; to be a prostitute was referred to by the word as was ongoing adulterous sex and even premarital sex. The second part is where we get the word for graphics. It implied first of all a writing of something or drawing it on paper. So pornography means literally writing about illicit sex. Since painting is really writing with pictures, it applies to the world of graphic interpretation as well. Pornea is not the word used for "uncleanness" which is the word akatharsia and implies more of a depraved state than sexual. Most NT references to "uncleanness" speak of God abandoning sinners to their own "uncleanness." Often illicit sex (pornea) was part of this depravity.

Mark

I have searched & seen this NED. Neither my H nor I are "addicted" though...so I had questions about how to apply it to us.

I saw this part of that article:



...and really, that is what I had hoped for with me & my H. Which is why I opened up the convo with Limbo's suggestion:




I basically acknowledged my past use of porn / vibrators, let my H know I stopped doing this & why, and concluded by asking him how he would feel about doing the same. He called that a DEMAND. I asked a clarfiying question too. I said "I told you why I stopped & why and then I asked you how you would feel about doing the same thing and you see that as a demand?" He said YES. Quite frankly his verbal response to that & his subsequent statement that HOPE is a DEMAND smacks of crazymaking.

Before this experience, crazymaking would make me...well...CRAZY LOL! I know how to respond to crazymaking now though - There are a number of ways depending upon the situation or circumstance:

I can respond with reality
I can respond with reverse babble
I can respond with silence at key points in the conversation

I tried each of these in last night's conversation at what I perceived to be the appropriate moment(s).

That's "the" plan Think!

Looking at his responses, I can see the fear and I can see how he is expressing it as anger. Looking at some of his outward behaviors, I can see that he's considering things. It's so easy to hang on to the old ways of thinking, doing, and relating...The new stuff is scary. I understand how he feels because I get frightened in this at times and it comes out as anger (as you all have seen).

This is a great opportunity for us to create a more fulfilling life together, I try to focus on that when I am conscious of my fear trying to get the better of me.

For sure.


No prob Bit

Email redacted for privacy reasons.

Thanks for your help everyone!

Here are my edits. I would drop this topic of porn with him like a hot potato for now and keep up your vigilance. He is REALLY defensive. That's what is prickling your nerves right now.

P.S. Great use of using PORN in a thread title. I may have to borrow a page from YOUR book sometime! LOL

I like the idea of using this issue re: porn to move your marriage to a new level.

Your wording in that last paragraph though...should/could be reworked and perhaps some vets will be along to help you out better.

Think in terms of 'thoughtful requests'.

Does Mr Chris really send you emails like that? Wow. Career military for sure...

Chris, FWIW, I wish I could get emails like that from my spouse. (Not the content, but the organized layout)!