Chris...

I have NO IDEA why people change after marriage. It is a fact and certainly NOT in their best interests. But it is a fact none-the-less.

My 'theory' is that the 'job' is done in their minds and now they can relax. But even moreso, I think that often after marriage, an unfortunate comfort is felt that they are safe and no longer have to 'try' to catch their mate. Obvious problems are that the person their mate thought 'caught' them turns out to be someone else entirely.

I also think that it is often, perhaps in men, a punishment for their wives. One which is somewhat acceptable to society. Just like a woman's refusal of sex makes 'perfect sense' to her friends, if he is being what she believes is a jerk. So to, perhaps, is a man's choice to 'screw her' and ignore some of her basic needs. It might just be sloth in alot of men... I don't know. But in others I really believe it is passive aggressive behavior.

The lack of sexual fulfillment by a wife can quickly bring about the 'screw it' mentallity of a man, which obviously brings about an even MORE self-righteous (but now seemingly reasonable) reaction of 'no sex'. It becomes a self-fulfilling circle but the bottom of the circle is the drain.

Men receive a HUGE amount of self-worth and self-esteem from their perception of how their wives view them. And one of the MOST telling ways a wife views her husband is her ability to SHOW HIM through sexual fulfillment. As soon as sex becomes an issue for a man, all manner of things are put out of sort. I really don't believe you will EVER have a truly healthy and happy marriage if SF for a man isn't met. There are others... many others... both for men AND women, so please don't think I am just laying this all on wives. I am just telling it like it is from a man's point of view. For most men, not all but most, SF is SO IMPORTANT and integrated into almost EVERYTHING they do and how they feel, that is is almost impossible to separate its lack from their job, children, friendships, etc.

Read those articles again, and you will see just how entwined a man's sense of self and SF really are for most men.

I can't explain why men can be slobs and pigs and still 'want to get some'. There is no excuse at all. But I can say that if somehow you can work past that... maybe by inviting him into the shower with you, etc. You WILL have a happier marriage, IMO.

Tell us straight out... DON'T HINT. Say... "I went to Victoria's Secret today, and if you go shower and shave, I will show you what I bought!"

Its crap I know... but you are working on your marriage and men are dense and some are boorish.

But as a man... I would be up the stairs and lathered like a shot.

luri,

I HATE bad breath too. I don't see how anyone could tolerate it being physically close to someone.

I want to share something too: It really does seem to lay the responsibility for the relationship squarely in the woman's lap. A healthy marriage is simply not possible unless the man is able to get his SF. This is a cultural norm worldwide & yes ...it makes women angry.

I know my wife hates having the power to impact my mood. I know she wishes that the presence or absence of SF did not affect me so powerfully. But it does. She would gladly give up the power to be relieved from the responsibility. I wish I knew how to make that happen.

I accept what you're saying and I truly appreciate how you laid it out bluntly.

I want to share something too: It really does seem to lay the responsibility for the relationship squarely in the woman's lap. A healthy marriage is simply not possible unless the man is able to get his SF. This is a cultural norm worldwide & yes ...it makes women angry.

I think most of us men are willing to agree that it isn't "fair" that sex is so important. Then again, it isn't fair to either side. Trust me, it is just as frustrating to go without sex as it is to be responsible for providing sex to your spouse. Two sides of the same coin.

As CFIO said, just imagine if a man told his wife "you are not permitted to speak to anyone else. Only me. I will only speak with you when I am in the mood. Otherwise, you are to remain silent." How long do you think that would last?

Or this one. "You are not permitted to receive any Affection except with me. No hugging the kids. Or your friends. No petting the dog. No massages or chiropractic treatments. Nothing except what I choose to provide." Would anyone agree to that?

I understand women resent being responsible for satisfying a man's need for SF. But what choice is there besides accepting that responsibility? Are you going to allow him to seek satisfaction elsewhere? If not, how can you avoid responsibility for meeting his need? As we have seen all too often, wishing it away is not often a successful strategy.

Think: we can agree to disagree. I do not believe it is possible for all people to eliminate the impact 100%. Then again, that belief is part and parcel of why I have not been able to achieve success in life.

I do not see it as a conscious choice on my part to feel bad when my wife withholds what is within her power to grant. Just as my wife does not see it as a conscious choice to consent to sex when she is not in the mood.

It is all well and good to say to your spouse "listen to Eleanor Roosevelt and don't let my rejection affect you." I suggest that women who say that to their husbands should not be surprised when he responds "fine, but feel free to do the same when I choose not to meet your needs for Conversation, Affection, Domestic Suppor or Financial Support".

Maybe I can through extreme effort of will shrug off my wife's rejection. Not my experience that I can, but for the sake of argument let us assume it is possible. Regardless, I am certainly not going to thank her for giving me the opportunity to make the effort.

Or as Dr. Harley says, I am not going to feel romantic love for her. The underlying assumption of the MB system is that our behavior DOES affect how our spouse feels about us. I don't think it is a far stretch to suggest it affects how they feel about themselves as well.

I think most of us men are willing to agree that it isn't "fair" that sex is so important.

Lack of sex makes men angry. Everybody gets angry. That is not a reason to ignore responsibility.

Like it or not, in the typical relationship, women have exactly the responsibility you describe. They may not want it. They may wish it away. But it is still there.

That doesn't excuse me for LBing or for refusing to meet my wife's ENs. But the reality is that not only am I much more motivated to do so when my need for SF is satisfied, but also I am much more ABLE to do so. That is the key. I have more to offer in every facet of life when I am not starved for SF. Ineluctably, my wife's ENs will not be as fully satisfied when I am starving for SF. Even if I wanted to fulfill her, I don't have the ingredients within myself to create the same level of success.

I know my wife hates having the power to impact my mood. I know she wishes that the presence or absence of SF did not affect me so powerfully. But it does. She would gladly give up the power to be relieved from the responsibility. I wish I knew how to make that happen.

In fact, if I had not WANTED to have SF with my H, I would not have married him.

I understand... but what do most women want? Can it be obtained from somewhere else in some instances?

Women typically are upset because affection, conversation, etc are not being met. that is a perfectly reasonable belief and I understand completely. However, in the same light, friends can perform a significant portion of those needs meeting behaviors, whereas, there is NOTHING to do for SF other than adultery or do without, which we already all agree won't work.

I am absolutely NOT saying that it is MORE important than YOUR most important need.

But what I AM SAYING is that often, to the man, it is a conglomeration of ALL his needs. I don't know whether there is a correlative need for women or most women, however, a man's day can be made incredible, with morning sex. I don't know whether the same could be said for a woman's day with conversation. For instance.

My bad because I should have chosen to meet my spouse's important EN anyway. But to your point of circular, here's what happened.

I've been really upset, down, depressed lately. The shaky job sitch has thrown me for a loop. My financial situation is terrible and shows no signs of getting better. I'm very stressed out. I have doubts about whether I should even stay married or not.

But married I am and I am still attempting to work the MB program as much as possible while still drawing my boundaries (AOs, etc.)

Last night and again this morning, I tried to share with my husband how stressed out I am, and how I am so scared that I can't pull myself up by my bootstraps this time, something I'd always been able to do. I really ripped open my chest and showed all my innards.

I got *crickets*

Needless to say, he didn't get SF. (not that he asked, but I also made sure I wasn't available)

OH...These men are saying that your H cannot even find it within him to meet your ENs if you don't give him SEX.

What are your thoughts on that? Specifically, have you seen that giving your H sex has resulted in improvements within your marriage?