Sure, I can get my emotional need for conversation met somewhere else, to a point (with friends). My husband can get his emotional need for sex met somewhere else to a point (porn and masturbating). And we can go on like this for a long time. Being sort of satisfied, but not really satisfied. I want my need for conversation met by my husband. Is that being selfish? Maybe it is. But is it being selfish to want this if this is the thing that will make me desire him in the way he so wants to be desired, sexually? We had sex and have sex. He just can't get that conversation is as important to me as sex is to him. He says I talk to you all the time. Well, sort of he does. He tells me how his work day went, all the time. Or he tells me about the plans for his next "activity" (IB), all the time. This level of conversation is like a back rub is to sex. There are words or there is physical contact but the goal is not really being met. Sorry for the t/j. I'm struggling again.

OH, I am sorry about what you are experiencing with your H.

My experience is: Meeting SF along with the other changes I have made seems to be working for us. My H is definitely responding. It's not all about the SF though & it did not begin with SF. Recall, my H was in Withdrawl and direct SF wasn't a possibility. I started out by working to eliminate LBs and making an attempt to meet the ENs which I could. For the EN of SF (which I KNEW was important to my H) I started dressing more provocatively in the home and I started undressing for the evening and dressing in the morning in front of him. After about 2 or 3 times of me doing that in front of him, he approached me for FULL SF. You read my thread so you may remember this too, but I had a feeling it was coming. I described how he practically ran out of the room the first time I did the undressing thing (he wanted something he felt he could not have from me at the time) and I asked what I should do if he approached me that way. I went through with it & sealed the deal so to speak, but it was NOT easy (as I described earlier in this thread.)

I can't say whether I would continue with the SF if
1) the marriage wasn't showing clear signs of improving
and / or
2) SF was not enjoyable or other wise unpleasant for me

I would begin to feel used and likely begin to experience the process of developing sexual aversion as described by Dr. H. For me, I believe that the next logical step would have been moving on.

And there we have it gentlemen...

Gentlemen, you may also visit pages 23 & 24 this thread and tell us if you feel "the leg spread option" would work with certain types of husbands...

This is not a thread jack. Your comments are directly related to the subject & these men need to read these thoughts.

Chris, my H has always been ready and willing for SF, no matter how awful things are. He is more easily able to compartmentalize than I am.

Compartmentalize or prioritize?

I ask that way because I believe it's all abotu what matters most to him.

Once again, LLF, it's like reading my own words from a few months ago. It CAN get better

However, I think we oversimplify things when we say, "Just suck it up and do SF for the good of the marriage and everything will get better." Because MANY of us had been doing that for quite some time before we ever found MB. And we know that it does NOT work.

What works is using MB. . . all of it. Meeting the need for SF is only a very small part of it. And if my meeting that need for my husband is done in a way that causes me to sacrifice, or is not 100% enthusiastic, then I am actually HARMING my marriage by engaging in SF. Because while not meeting a need does do damage, engaging in a LB does WAY more damage. And sacrifice is essentially LBing myself. I'm drining my own LB, and that is NOT good for marriage.

SF is not the quick way to restore romantic love. It is not the shortcut. It is just one of 4 intimate ENs. And meeting EN is just one part of the MB program.

The other parts are Protection, Time, Honesty, and Unity (through the POJA). Some parts of MB are easier for a wife in withdrawl to do than others. SF is in my opinion one of the harder ones. So working the program in the other areas is probably a better route for me to take than hoping that SF will be the magic bullet. The only reason that it ever works as a magic bullet is if it's used in conjuction with everything else.

OH... been there several times. You 'THINK' that you are baring it all... down to the bone... and get nothing back. I believe you were, but there is some inherant wall in some people which keeps them from seeing what you are saying. I believe that in some, it is merely that THEY aren't trustworthy, and therefore cannot see anyone else as being trustworthy either. Hence, whatever you say is relatively meaningless, because she/he could have said it as well and as easily, without any truth what-so-ever.

I did the same thing several times. I did it about a month ago in counseling, and when queiried by the counselor about how it made her feel, The counselor said "That would have melted about 98% of all womens hearts, but it doesn't seem to have even phased you." she said "Its nothing he hasn't said before." And THAT was like the final hammer that struck and broke the wall of ignorance I had held about her all this time. Finally, I could see who she really was...

I have found that it is all about OUR expectations and how sorrowfully they are filled by our spouses. ENs are one thing, but we hope and expect some reasonable recognition of who we are and what we believe... and it is about THESE things, which I believe I felt even MORE badly, than when ENs were ignored.

CFIO, someone (LA maybe?) posted somewhere about expectations and why they did us more damage than good. I tend to agree. I get myself in trouble everytime when I start to have them.

I wish I could find the actual quote. Maybe someone else who can work the search engine here better than I can do it. It made a lot of sense.

Chris, yes, it is about what matters to him. Today he came over to the family room couch where I was lying down and said he needed me to snap out of my funk because it was affecting his ability to find a job. (!!!) I told him that I agreed I should do my best to be cheerful, but that my feelings were my feelings and there wasn't much he could do about that. Then he went into a short rant about how he was not having angry outbursts anymore (um, yeah, right)even though he was still angry.

I didn't rise to the bait to argue with him about his AOs but I did tell him that his right to his feelings of anger are as valid as my right to my feelings of despair and that we should avoid trying to harm each other or others in the house with them.

He started to argue with me and then said Uh, yeah, I guess. And then proceeded to walk out the door and start to slam it. And then stop. LOL

I'm pretty much disgusted these days.

Wow...just - wow.

Yeah..just wow...

Later he came up to me and said "that came out the wrong way". That was after I told him how unbelievably hurt and uncared for I felt after that comment. About an hour after I said that. So maybe it digested? I wish, but I don't think so. His comment was "Look, that comment came out the wrong way, but..."

He lost me at the "but".

Look, there are jerks of both genders. There are narcissists who care only about themselves. There are people who have been abused and are afraid to be vulnerable and hide themselves from their partner. Neither gender has a monopoly on bad behavior.

I did 8 years of marriage counseling. Met my wife's needs as she explained them to me. Took her on vacations. Bought her jewelry. Helped around the house. Still zero sex. The number of times we have gone on vacation outside the United States without the kids exceeds the number of times we have had sex while on vacation. Including our honeymoon. She has received more items of jewelry from me than the number of times we have had sex while on vacation. And the number of times I have rearranged my schedule to make time for "honey do" items is orders of magnitude more than the number of times we have had sex.

I understand that couples can get into a vicious cycle of denying each other. I wouldn't want to have sex with someone who ignored me and took me for granted.

Nevertheless, it remains true that most married guys are going to be less motivated to refrain from LBs and meet their wife's ENs where sex is lacking no matter what else is happening in their life. It is also true that women generally do not take this as motivation to have more sex. As Dr. Harley says, he generally doesn't work on SF directly. He tells husband's to avoid LBs and meet ENS and hopes it will result in the wife desiring to provide more SF. When it works it is great. When it doesn't work, it doesn't work.

Think, I don't really disagree with your idea that self-esteem should come from within. I wish mine did. It never has. And I don't know how to find any within myself. I feel good about myself when Mrs. Hold and I have sex. I feel lousy when we don't (which is most of the time). And I have not found any way to break that connection. If there is a switch inside my to turn off that connection, I haven't found it. I made partner at a law firm. Still felt like crap. Got a huge raise. Still felt like crap. Volunteered for community service and charitable events and still feel like crap. Trust me, no one wishes I were wired differently more than me.

I doubt I am the only man wired this way.

Okay.....four years ago, my M stunk. No SF, no C, no....well, not much. And I was hurt and lonely.....and whatever opinion I might have had about marriage building would have been, in a word, pointless.

Because I was having an A.

No matter what problems I might have had then in my marriage, the REAL problem was my A, my denial, and my blame-shifting justifications. I know this isn't SAA forum, but I feel very compelled to just inject that. AFTER I confessed and made a significant time's worth of amends, THEN we could start attacking problems. SF included.

So, one frank thing to consider: if I am having SF with someone else, justifying my SF with someone else, or playing poor me about my SF with someone else, I really CAN'T have a frank discussion about SF with my spouse.

Okay, I'm done now.

Of course he did. "BUT" is kryptonite for apologies.

Today he said he doesn't want to "talk", he just wants to "do". Ok, I get that. You can talk to the cows come home but if you don't follow through, or show through your actions, the words are just meaningless.

The problem is, his actions don't make me feel cared for in any way and he is resentful that I'm not responding to what he feels are actions that *should* make me feel cared for.

Today he said "either you didn't listen to me last night or I communicated badly. I said that you need to feel better so that I can do what I need to do because I'm doing this for you and the family." At least, I think that's what he said. It means the same thing as what he said last night, anyway, but why argue? He'll insist I: a) did not listen, as usual and b) he's not going to open up to me again because once again, I managed to use it against him.

He keeps saying he's got Steve Harley's 2:1 ratio in his mind but then he says "but it's not doing anything. I rub your neck, I try to make you feel better but you don't feel better and I'm sick of trying and getting nowhere."

Wow, I feel *so* much better.
/sarcasm

OH, I know your H is just suffering from lifestyle issues, but there is an Alanon book I think you may still find relevant, The Dilemma of an Alcoholic Marriage. Think for a moment, what if you had made a choice to take his original statement as a thoughtful request, and took a quiet moment to ask yourself if you would be willing to choose your attitude? What if you had left it at the first part, before the but, because that part was really good, that you want to do your best to be cheerful, because you probably lost him after the But too. Do you see how you two are each doing what you are accusing the other of doing? More focused on deflecting accusations than working together to choose the attitude you want together. It's natural, OH, to do this, but you also have second-to-none support and information available, to keep your consistency in the awesome changes your family has made and can continue to make.

(((Hugs)))

What can you do to change direction this weekend? What fun RC or FC stuff do you and your H enjoy doing to reset?

I don't want to derail what definitely is an important discussion, but I thought this personal anecdote might give some perspective on the topic of SF.

I have mentioned that November was the last SF for us, before that August. I do love H, and I am committed to him, but it has been a source of frustration, sadness, and distance at times.

Well, last night we were "together." I cannot explain how I felt. It was like part of me woke up again. I woke up with him still close to me in the wee hours and was so....giddy I couldn't sleep. My heart feels full. I feel young and energetic and passionate and CONNECTED to my H. I look at him today and still feel it. No big thing happened yesterday. I didn't do extra DS, we didn't have a "big talk." I can't even really recall our conversations. THE reason I feel so different this morning than yesterday morning is...SF. Now, we do not instantly have a perfect M. But for me, the one with the high need, I feel more peaceful, more close, more hopeful than I have in months.

SF is POWERFUL.

P.S. Imagine the dynamic affect this would have on our M if it happened on a frequent and regular basis.

That should be on a bumper sticker.

THAT is an AWSOME little book!!!!

Even for those who are not in an alcoholic marriage, like me. I read it to better undeerstand other relationships that had affected me, and also because it has the best "advice" on communication that I have ever come across. I know that we don't focus so much on solving communication problems with MB, but we DO have them, and the chapters on communication are great. There is also quite a bit in this book about SEX!!!!!

I need to go back and re-read it.

I agree. I have been making myself more available to my husband lately. And it may or may not be having any affect on him. But it is definitely having an effect on me, in a positive way. It's not like the problems are solved, but the closeness is helping me feel more connected to him. Even the times that have been imperfect or marred by some negativity. Because that's part of intimacy too.