I'm not really sure she is. I think either she's doing something that I'm somehow not noticing, or she's allowing me to touch her affectionately and thinks that fits the bill. As in, I hug her, I put my arm around her, I hold my hand, and then later when she hears me say I want physical affection she thinks "We've been touching all day; what more do you want?"

But I don't think I'm going to get to have that conversation with her any time soon.

Hi again Markos,

When she is speaking more easily, ASK HER what she wants you to do during those times. Maybe it turns out you inititating something else is exactly the thing to do. Maybe she prefers NOT to speak, and she wants you to help her move on (that would be rare, but not impossible).

I know this is one of the hardest things for you (it's the title of your post, after all).

But you can do it. Be patient.

Two words to ponder...

Space

and

Grace

Our Taker expects us to get what we want from our spouse. It requires that we be happy. It exists so that we might be happy. When we aren't happy it jumps to our rescue and pulls out all the stops in order to get us what we need (notice the word "need" there and not the word "want"). Until we get it our Taker turns up the heat, expects even more and is not satisfied until we get what will make us happy.

Our Giver always wants our spouse to be happy. It is our Giver that is willing to sacrifice, give up our own happiness and do without even our most basic needs ion order that our spouse might reach fulfillment.

When one person in a marriage has put their Giver away only the Taker remains. Until Love Banks fill up a bit the Taker will be running every negotiation and every complaint will be seen as a personal attack which of course causes the Taker to jump into the fray and demand even more.

When both Love Banks are empty, or very near empty, asking for something even respectfully is asking for trouble since it is two Takers trying to negotiate and neither one can be expected to give since giving is not in the domain of the Taker.

So out come Love Buster, the tools of the trade for Takers. SDs, DJs, AOs, IB, all just allow our Taker to try to control the situation and leverage it in our favor. Of course it is a self defeating strategy since all of those things push the Giver of our spouse further down the ladder and causes their Taker to expect ever more.

Space to process things and respond without Love Busting is something that we often forget. This is something we all need, space and time to consider things. Once we have processed them we lay them out, showing our cards, putting everything we are and have in the hands of our spouse...

And our spouse doesn't react like we expected and our Taker, lying right there below the surface is ready to enter the fight and ensure our satisfaction. The fact that we took time to process, test various hypotheses and draw conclusions yet our spouse is still gathering data based on what we just said can seem like a side stepping of the issue. It is really just a stepping back to evaluate the newly acquired input.

Of course when that happens, operating from our Taker, we jump to the conclusion that our spouse doesn't want us to be happy (DJ), demands satisfaction (SD), and gets angry and lets our spouse know we are angry (AO), then we go off and do something that salves our perceived wounds (IB) and wonder why we even bother.

Grace is giving permission to fail. Offering grace to our spouse allows them to not do everything right, to miss the mark, to fall down, get up and fall down again. If we demand that falling down is not permitted, our spouse will stop trying since if failure is not allowed the only way to ensure not failing is to not try.

So space and grace and both required in order to make a marriage work. When we are wrong we need to allow each other space (and time) to process things and grace to not react before we have all the facts. When we are right we need to allow space to look at what is important and offer grace to accept our spouse as the imperfect person they really are.

I spent a lot of frustrated hours and days, even weeks, wondering when she would "get it" and begin to meet my ENs in an all out effort like I set about trying to do. Inevitably I did more harm than good every time I tried to push her ahead along the road to a MB marriage. Any time I forgot that it was what I did that I was responsible for and only what I was doing that I could judge motives and intents about and let my Taker have even a few seconds of control, a step backward resulted and I found myself going over the same ground time and again wondering when SHE would get it right and missing the fact that it was my impatience that was making us repeat the same mistakes over and over. When I changed MY way of thinking and my actions changed as the result of my new thought processes was when she began to be drawn to me, want to be with me, wanting to make me happy and give her Giver free reign to try to give me what I needed since what she needed was being met and her Taker could take a break.

It was during this time I figured out that the most important part of putting our marriage back together was not MB ideas or learning about them or talking about them or using them, it was DOING them.

And the most important thing we could do was spend time together filling Love Banks back up. no talking about MB, no analyzing ENs or line listing Love Busters, just being together, holding hands, walking in the woods, talking about the trees, the flowers, the kids, the granddaughter, things at church...anything other than "the relationship."

Gradually (<<<key word in this paragraph so don't miss it), we reached a place where we could stop taking because we were already getting and at that point we could begin to give freely because our own Love Banks weren't devoid of things to give. At first it was not WE and US doing this it was me and I that did it. When I felt my own Love Bank draining, when the stress of "fixing" and "rebuilding" and "recovery" were taking their toll, I learned to recognize the symptoms of my Taker wanting to come out to play. Then I scheduled something fun and I kept scheduling fun stuff for us to do together until her Taker would stop being so noticeable in every interaction and my own Taker was willing to see what transpired instead of getting up in each other's face expecting to get by taking and refusing to give because we had already given and were getting nothing in return.

Remember always that from the MB model, saying "My Love Bank is empty" is really saying "I don't love you."

How much UA time did you have last week?

I know you read a lot of MB books. I know you communicated about MB stuff on here and in email. I know you learned a lot about what a MB marriage is all about.

But what did you do to fill her Love Bank and allow her to fill yours. Skip the touch/no touch, affection/lack of affection stuff for a minute and think about whether or not you gave each other time to do it or if you just spent your time learning more about it and talking about it.

Also let me ask you how long it took you to get to the place where your understanding of MB is at right now? How long has your wife been working at it? Has she been working as hard at it as you have? Not trying to point out lack of effort here just pointing out that you have been trying to save your marriage and she has been in Withdrawal for a while.

Allow her time to process things and understand what MB is really all about before debating getting ENs met and stuff. She knows what your ENs are. Does she get to meet them or do you guys go off in opposite directions all the time? You know her ENs, right? Meet them for her so her Taker can take a break and let her Giver get a bit of exercise.

And always keep in mind the purpose of POJA which is to prevent us from hurting each other whenever we have a conflict, even if it means the conflict is never resolved.

Give her space to consider what she will and will not do and the grace to fail to do it the way you expect.

Give her the space to get it right and the grace to get it wrong.

And while you wait...spend more time together with nothing more serious than "what would you like to do now?" on the table.

Mark

Mark - that was beautiful....


THIS was something I needed to hear. It is the most wonderful gift my husband has ever given me: the ability to screw up and still be loved. I'm close to tears.

Thank you.

Mark,

I realize you were talking to Markos, but I felt like you were talking to me too.

Wow...

Mark often has that effect, doesn't he?

Just so everyone knows, I sent Mark an email with a couple of private questions ... hopefully he'll have a bit of extra time to straighten me out privately, and then maybe some of the good insights from that can be shared here.

It is very VERY hard for people who are not naturally affectionate (touchy) to learn how/when to meet this need.

To you (and me) it seems SO OBVIOUS... but they generally have nO CLUE what we want.

After 11 years, my husband is still surprised when i ask for physical affection.

Just something to think about.

We do well when we come up with a plan for touching... My favorite time of the day is now when we watch tv together at night and I lay my head in his lap. It just feels so good. And when he is finishing a show I am not as interested in, i will turn towards him so it's even more snuggly for me, but costs him nothing emotionally.

Mark...that was truly amazing! Thank you!

That was very nice Mark... Hard to do... Hard to do... but very nice. I am glad that you were close enough to your wife to be able to maintain and do it.

Mark1952,

Thank you for this infinitely valuable post. I wish we could rate posts with 5 stars as this one would get 6!! (Moderators take note to added functionality)

This should be required reading for MBers. Its exactly what I have been trying to convey in my recent posts about how "reactionary" everyone is (aka my spouse).

The other day I asked her how our day would have gone differently if instead of jumping directly to being hurt and offended by something I said, if she would have tried to repeat it and ASK me if that is what I meant like...

HER "HOney, what you just said sounds very hurtful and insulting. It feels like a punch in my stomach... Like you don't want to spend time with me and that you don't want to share this moment with me! Is that what you meant??"

ME "Dear, if I knew that something I said was going to be like a punch to your gut do you really think I would do that knowingly???!!! Of course not. What I meant was I am trying to share my feelings and trying to be blah blah blah..."

Given some GRACE and a moment of SPACE in time by the use of a question rather than just jumping to an emotional reaction, we could have averted a huge "perceived" LBer.

Mark has graciously written me a long and very helpful email. I am of course still digesting it. Here's a pretty wonderful sentence:

"My point is that in order to make the relationship work, you don't have to talk about the relationship much at all."

Yeah, she messed up.

So ...

... what if you had offered her some grace at that point?

{Just a pot talking here, of course.}

BP, have you ever read this article? Instead of going straight to defending yourself, how about doing your marriage a favor, and listen to the information your wife is giving you? I know it's hard when you're in State of Conflict to let go of trying to prove that your partner is WRONG about EVERYTHING, but DJs go directly against your goal, to restore the romantic love to your marriage. It's kind of ironic, because you are doing at the same time exactly what you are accusing your spouse of doing, instead of setting the example in love and letting the Basic Concepts improve your marriage!

"Ouch? No, no, let me explain."

I'm working on DJs right now- I think I do them without realizing and DH doesn't consciously notice them (but I still want to eliminate them) and was wondering how to phrase something like this without DJing.

How about:

"Honey, I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to make you feel that way. I never want to hurt you. What I meant was ____________. Please tell me the next time I do that."

Is that mas bueno?

Wow, another post written to someone else that actually sounds perfect when aimed right at me!

It's almost as if the same story is playing out, over and over...

Indeed I did say those words to her exactly after she communicated to me how hurt she was. Two days later.

I can see all the points about how my question seems like a DJ but that was my third example of how we could have had a great day together. And I wouldn't be here if I didn't need help. So thank you all.


The conversation went like this...
ME- "Hon, if I am not there (at the hospital) for the moment that our grandbaby is born it won't be a big deal to me. What do you think I should do with our 8 yr old while we wait?"

Just the fact that I was communicating with her about how WE should arrange our day was me trying to show I CARE.

But she misinterpreted �it won't be a big deal to me � and instead what she heard was "I don't care about sharing this moment with you and I don't care if I am there when she is born." (DJ's correct? and also not true about me)

What she did was react with anger and said "Fine, go do whatever your priorities are." and something else about calling me later.

So now me, sensing that she was upset... I rushed to hospital to be with her (actions that show I care for her). I was greeted with... I take that back. I wasn't greeted by her at all. She steamed, sulked and became non-communicative the rest of the day so much so that upon birth, she didn't even want to hug me.

I am not trying to play defense here but I feel defensive because (IMHO) I was communicating openly & honestly, I was engaged and attentive, I was responsive (by going to be with her) to her obvious stress and she chose to not try to resolve whatever issue she had at the time. Is this how you Mbers see it?

Many of you have seen this story elsewhere because I am really concerned about it because in her view I ruined another big life event for her. For me it looks like I was penalized for communicating, I was penalized for sharing, I was penalized all day with anger, DJ�s and ended up in a NO WIN situation where not only is she mad that I �implied� I didn�t care and wouldn�t be there but then I also got the shaft when I showed up to be with her. She was not communicating O&H but instead was immediately offended and reacted with anger, made DJ's, and decided that her anger was justified so she wasn't going to allow me/us to fix it either. She chose to ruin her day. And as I look back on years of her claim that I ruined all these big events I conclude that if every one of them has been ruined in her opinion, that it must be her ruining her own days. Her owning her stuff is rare.
As I understand this stuff it seems like she is responsible for her emotions, that according to LovingAnyway her DJ that I don�t care is abuse.

I have gone around and around on this so much its annoying now. Sorry all and thank you again for your help. Comments & constructive criticism welcome.

Again sorry for dwelling on my sitch, sorry for TJing. I'm just really really torn up about how this went. Trying to avoid this again.

I read it. Its a great example. I said I was sorry directly for hurting her after she informed me of her pain that I know I caused whether intentional or not. I am being an intentional MBer so thank you for your help.

BP, congratulations on your grandbaby! I think you both have a choice, and I think that it's great that you're here, so you can learn to set the example in love. I think if you would forgive her in your heart for that misunderstanding, it would change whole feeling in the house, what do you think?

When she made her angry comment about you doing whatever your priorities were, couldn't you have questioned her further? It just seems like a miscommunication to me. If you are both in conflict these things happen a lot and can be very hurtful.

I would imagine that she jumped to that conclusion because she is in the habit of thinking that you don't care about what she cares about. This would be the bigger issue I think.