Fred, you kill me!!

Fred,

Those plates are awesome! I will look for them on the road here as I'm in VA currently!

Fred,

I'm coming to your thread to ask your advice. I've posted on Gurka's thread and have been getting quite the beating for my views. I know you've been reading it. What's your take?

It's not my intent to offend anyone. I want to call it like it is. I don't think I could ever forgive infidelity in a spouse after the he77 I went through in my situation. I see threads here where guys hang on to some really messed up women where divorce is clearly the liberating thing for them to do.

There's others where things fell apart after a good marriage. Those, I believe, are salvageable. The ones where the woman is messed in the head are not.

I especially feel this for guys who have no kids with these women. It's not a popular MB opinion, but if a guy gets cheated on and has no kids, then why stay? I know it's a personal decision, but there is so much more out there that is better?

The comment that offended everyone was that I asked, "why settle for sloppy seconds?"

Perhaps that's a crude way of putting it, but that's the feeling I got as the years went on and I thought about the remote possibility of taking my ex back (a thought that is waaaaaaay out of my mind).

So I ask you to weigh in. Feel free to do it here since Gerka seems upset to have the debate on his thread. Perhaps you can weigh in with your own experience and perspective.

Pep,

You're correct that we must all reach that conclusion on our own. Perhaps I went over the top to make my point.

But things don't look good for him and I was a man who stepped away from a career with the idea of saving my marriage and it was a decision that got me nowhere.

Granted, in the end, it has worked out since I've met a wonderful woman who is an equal to me in every respect. She's a partner, not a charity case. I'm very happy with her. So perhaps the mistakes I made and that I regretted for a long time were simply the path I had to follow to get to where I am today.

Still, I hate to see a young officer crap on his career over a WW.

HTLD, since this is my thread, I can pretty much say what I want, right?

I hope this answers your question. It's what I'm going to say, anyway.

I know for a fact that Alcoholics Anonymous works. I've seen the results firsthand, and too many times for it to be simple coincidence.

There may be other methods that work to help active alcoholics recover, but since I know about one that does, I haven't found it necessary to look elsewhere.

I feel the same way about Marriage Builders. There are other marriage recovery programs (there's one that advertises to death on local radio here), but I have studied and read the MB concepts and learned from the posters here, so I haven't thought of looking elsewhere, either.

But here's the catch: Both recovery programs depend on the affected person making their own personal decision about recovery. A.A. will not tell any person that she or he is alcoholic. That's a personal decision, and once made enables the person to choose to follow the recovery program or not. I think Marriage Builders is the same way.

A.A. admits there are those who may be "constitutionally incapable" of grasping the program. But it does not attempt to identify those people, or to exclude them. Neither does MB.

It's my personal opinion that there are some people who are not capable of "grasping and developing a manner of living" that is in keeping with MB concepts. I believe my soon-to-be ex-wife is one of those. That is only my opinion. Some of the people here urged me to look at that possibility, but only I could make the decision if I wanted to pursue marital recovery or not.

You and I may share the same opinion of Gerka's story or not. But the only thing that matters is what Gerka thinks. There are some real horror stories here, but only the ones that seem to scream out "personality disorder" will I address. And then I will only do as was done to me: urge the person in pain to explore the possibility. I believe an informed decision is always the best one. And when dealing with infidelity, cheating, lying and deception, it's often difficult to be "informed."

I think that as long as Gerka wants to try to recover his marriage, that's his choice. I can suggest that he consider the consequences of his decision, but ultimately it's his to make. If I disagree, I can bow out -- many of the veterans here quickly bail on those who won't bother to read and learn MB concepts. As long as one is willing to do the work, I think that person is deserving of support.

Or, if I really think that person is heading for disaster and I've given them my opinion, maybe it's just best if I back out.

A.A. and MB work. But they only work for the people who want them to work. The difference is that A.A. only has to work for the person affected. MB has to work for both people, and often one of the two isn't willing. Until the other comes to that realization, why not let them try?

Gee, I'm sorry for thread-jacking my own thread. Can we now get back to the topic of new license plates, please?

Good points all and I don't disagree.

Sometimes harshness is what is needed to break through the fog, but perhaps your method is more effective in the long term.

Right now I simply come off as jaded and aggressive, but hindsight is 20/20 and I had the moments of "If I could go back in time�.."

For a while I would say that with the idea of saving my marriage.

Then I said it with the idea of punishing the WW.

Now I don't say it at all. I'm happy she's out of my life and I'm happy that I'm getting married again to a great woman. I would have never met her had I not followed the painful road I did follow or had gone through the hell I went through with the ex. If I did go back in time I might have handled a few things differently, but I may not have met my future wife if I had.

You're still pretty fresh after your D. You'll follow similar patterns in thinking as far as your WXW goes.

I really, honestly, hope to help Gerka at least keep the legal issues at the forefront of his mind now that WW has filed.

I think many posters on MB have a certain blindness to the very grim reality I see on the board. Waywards are truly nasty people and I see many more marriages fail than succeed on here.

This poor guy is hanging on to hope that this broken woman will return someday. I had a similarly messed up woman in my past who did return, but it was years later after 2 other marriages and I had loooooong since moved on.

But like you said, he has to come to this conclusion on his own.

Fred, I am at loss here...what does this mean? It is very generic...
blessing

Just for the record, HTLD, I'm not yet divorced. Tomorrow is the first day that my lawyer can file the first Complaint For Divorce. It will likely be months before the my "ore tenus" (oral testimony) hearing and the Final Decree will be issued.

Which just keeps me in limbo for that much longer. I know I could date and "act divorced" but that just doesn't sit well with me.

So I'll spend this time working on myself.

I am all for people working to save their marriages. I'm also all for people pulling the plug when they've reached the end.

The way I see it, the best way I can help others is to share my experiences with them. Telling people I've never met what to do strikes me as the height of arrogance; I have no expertise or standing on this board to state unequivocally what someone else should do.

This is wise.



This is wiser. I left my wedding band on until I got confimation of the final signature. Why? Because I was still married and everyone needed to know that.



My thread is more oriented to woodchippers, Zulus, belly rings, thongs and tatoos.

But license plates are cool too.

Fred, we need more guys like you! The Leopard was and is a fool. She lost a real gem.

Gets even better! Way to go Fred!


I think today is the day I realized it is time to pull the plug on mine.

Blessing

I want to mention a small (but perhaps not insignificant) event that happened to me yesterday.

I went to church --the church my neighbors invited me to Easter Sunday-- which now makes three times in four weeks I've been to church. In fact, this makes it three times in perhaps the last five years I've been to church. I'm not a church-goer, and as with many recovered alcoholics, spent many years as a somewhat outspoken agnostic.

Following the service, I met my neighbors, who told me they had something for me in their car. We went out to the parking lot where they presented me with a leather-bound, personally-engraved Bible.

I have never had a Bible before.

I was and am very touched by this gesture.

Even with my skeptic's nightcap on, I have decided to read from it every night before turning out the light.

I know there is a purpose for all of this.

It is the very best book you never read, Fred. You are blessed to have people who care enough to give you one. Your life really is looking up.

God's Blessings,

Say

Fred, I'm touched and moved to see how you received the Book so positively.

I'll echo Say: God's blessings to you. You're holding one of them.

Yesterday the mail brought my copy of the Complaint for Divorce that my attorney filed with the court on Tuesday. The original and the Waiver (of Service Process) were sent to The Leopard's PO Box, where it should be awaiting her when she next picks up her mail.

Thus, the process that brought me here to Marriage Builders enters its penultimate stage. I continue to be grateful to those who give their time and energy to helping me and others.

While I am not leaving MB, I think it's more appropriate now for me to move my postings and updates to the Divorcing/Divorced forum. Thus, using the old newman's story-ending "slug," I am ending this thread with the traditional "sign-off."

- 30 -

Hey Fred-O.

When I first read this, I was thinking you were referring to Newman -- from Seinfeld. "Hello, Jerry........."

Well, make sure you don't going anywhere. Remember, you're just moving your mailing address to the OTHER SIDE of the railroad tracks. The better side.....

TB

I've never been a Seinfeld fan, so this one escapes me.

In fact, I've been in the minority more often than not.

I never cared for Led Zeppelin, and "Stairway to Heaven" in particular.

Pink Floyd's "The Wall" made me want to beat my head against it.

The trailers to "Titanic" made me want to retch. I still have never seen it.

Ditto, "Gone With the Wind."

I always seem to vote for the loser.

I've been a Mac user for 26 years. I hate Windows.

But now that I'm getting divorced, I find that I'm in a sad majority: 69% of marriages affected by adultery (when it's known) end in divorce.*

Source: http://www.infidelityfacts.com/infidelity-statistics.html

Oh come on Fred! Every wayward makes it very clear the adultery has nothing to do with the state of the marriage.

I had a small, feeling-good-about-it victory this evening.

Details in the Divorcing/Divorced forum.