Ladies... what would you think about having the EXACT same time in your NUMBER 1 EN met as you met SF? How about even DOUBLE? Sex takes 30 minutes once a month so you get an hour total of affection or conversation or whatever during that month?

THIS is sometimes how it feels to men... quite often actually. You might think... WELL... you can't really equate the ENs... and I would say... EXACTLY!

Again,

(And I say again, because the men seem to be resisting this idea..)

Per MB CONCEPTS:
SF is not placed in any higher regard than any other EN and it isn't in any special category as the men here would have us believe. Once more - The most important ENs for each of us are our spouse's top ENs. We should be working our butts off on those...this is not a tit for tat type of thing.

On a personal note:

SF most certainly does not take 30 minutes once a month!

I work on SF for my H virtually all the time from the little things I do: such as staying in shape, making myself look sexy and smell inviting when I am with him in public and especially in private, making sure he knows that I am available...to the big things up to and including the actual act of having sex.

On the contrary, SF is placed in a higher regard for those who have it as their number one EN. Same thing with your top EN, even if it means little to me.

Prisca...I think you may have missed major / key points in this discussion.

No, not really.

Then why would you "explain" something to me which I have already said?


In the mood for arguing just for the heck of it?

Pot, meet kettle.

Let's stop the bickering and get back on topic!

Thanks, Revera

**edit**

I hope you & Markos have a good night.

The value which we place on anything is subjective. There is no such thing as objective value, other than a third party being able to objectively observe the subjective value which some individual might place on a material object, a sound, smell, or their emotional needs.

All emotional needs are not equal to any one individual. If we say that so-and-so should not place such a high value on some emotional need of theirs, that is a dismissive opinion. It dismisses their value system.

So all the MB Emotional Needs are equal only in the sense that we have to accept them on face value. There are certainly extremes, which are outside the norms, far removed from what the average or typical person needs, that are open to question, because we know they are abnormal or subnormal.

But let's discuss things in the normal range first. If a man feels a need to make love with his wife twice a week in order to really feel bonded and in love, no one has a right to dismiss his normal emotional need. If his wife enjoys making love, but only twice a year is enough for her to feel in love, they have a problem. Since twice a year is not normal, she has a problem, and that is why they have a problem.

If SF is the least important EN to some other man, and the most important EN to his wife, they may or not have a problem. It depends on whether what they wants overlap or not. If there is overlap, they can both abide it. If there is a huge gap, as in the previous example, then only one of them is getting their need met at all. That is a problem.

As noted by many of the men and women here, SF is not an emotional need which can be met outside of marriage without destroying the marriage. If our wife doesn't like conversation about some subjects, we can find other people, male or female, who can meet that EN without violating the marriage. SF is unique.

Ok..so SF is "unique". Now what?

I agree, SF is unique in that it is an EA which can't be met by any other person other than the partner.

I completely disagree with Mark, and am all in favor of the feminist movement.

However, since we ladies know that SF is high for most men, I think we have the duty to meet that need if at all possible. It is a small thing to change for most women, just need to put it to a higher priority.

And since we are here, and not our husbands, we need to step up and make a good effort.

If after several months of meeting his need for SF nothing changes, then it is time to reexamine things.

What you're missing is that some women withhold sex anyway, even when they are happy in their marriage.

By the same token, some men withhold friendship even though they are getting sex (I think they're idiots but its true)


Or the morning would have been absolutely perfect if he had just left her alone. "Why can't we just cuddle some more like we did after our date last night? ...and the night before that, and the night before that, and the night before that and the night before that and the night before that and the night before that....

I think we actually agree. A wife's #1 EN is equal to the husband's #1 EN whatever they are. And all the ENs are easier to meet when our own ENs are met. I just don't think that it is always a circle. Like I've said before, I think the real problem comes when one spouse IS actively trying and even actually meeting the needs of their spouse and STILL are not getting their own ENs met in return.

For us, its not that my wife doesn't reciprocate. She DOES. Absolutely. She applies HER list of ENs onto me and meets them and she is deaf to my explanations that HER needs are not the same as mine. The analogy I've used previously is this. She makes deposits into my Love Bank, but she keeps depositing foreign currency. No matter how many times I've explained that I need dollars, she keeps depositing deutsche marks.

Well, I'll put it this way. I woke up today thinking about SF with my H (as I do pretty much EVERY day). He may shave, jog, eat right, smile a lot, think about me, hug me in the hallway, let me kiss him good night. But NONE of that is the SF I was thinking about this morning. The SF I was thinking about this morning was....well, ya know.

Just like, technically, me getting out the chicken, the green beans, the corn meal for bread, the potatoes, all have to do with cooking. BUT if I don't actually cook them, we ain't eating.

I am a woman. I have all the esoteric touchy feely thinking emotional parts that women have. I also have SF as an actual high EN - I say actual in the sense that I actually want it today...and tomorrow...and, you get the picture. After going four or five months without real SF, I pretty much don't care about the esoteric theory of SF. I. JUST. WANT. IT. And theories don't get the job done. It's past time for the rubber to meet the road, if you catch my drift.

So there's a choice. I can meet my H's EN's and he can meet mine, regardless of what our psychological theory on the subject. Or we can be unhappy. That's pretty much how it goes.

Thank you, lurioosi2, for providing a perfect example of a woman whose husband is ignoring her need for making love, that is the mirror image of what many men are describing here. So this is not an issue of "the men's view of SF" vs "the women's view of SF".

The deeper problem is not even SF. It could be any emotional need which the other spouse is dismissing by telling themselves that it should not be so important. Well, it is important. An EN is what it is. If it isn't perverse or ridiculous or impossible to meet, then it is reasonable.

It is also usually something we expect as part of marriage. When we are denied and dismissed, even in retaliation for our own shortcomings, but especially without such justification, it is a form of betrayal. It is a reasonable expectation of most wives that their husbands will work very hard to earn a reasonable income. It is reasonable for most husbands to expect their wives to make themselves attractive and keep a tidy house, etc. When one of them just quits trying in an area, and says they don't care what the other one thinks, that is not just an unmet EN, but an LB known as a Disrespectful Judgement.

Forgive me if I missed this being addressed in this thread but I have a question.

What happens if the "type" of SF is the problem?

I do believe that it is a maritial responsiblity to meet the EN of SF and I have done so regularly over the years. At the same time I have gotten resentful when meeting this need because I was doing things that I wasn't necessarily comfortable with because I knew it was something my husband desired.

I also agreed to SF when I didn't want to because my "rejection" got him so upset that he would pout and fuss so that I was unable to sleep (my reason for the rejection in the first place) so it was just easier and less time consuming to "do it" and be done with it.

I guess the big question is how much of any EN is enough? The same goes for other...I could sit and talk for hours about a variety of topics but what if my husband wants to watch relax and is tired of talking. When are my needs for conversation over the top....likewise, How much SF is enough? I think we can all agree that once or twice a year isn't sufficient and several times a day may be asking a bit much but what about all the middle ground?

This thread is fascinating.

Actually, I think Dr. Harley calls it abuse. Sometimes we make things very complex. That's okay if we just don't get it. There are many things about life I don't get (like mimes). however, when we make things complex because - at a gut level - we don't want to get it or don't think we should have to get it...then we get into dangerous territory.

I think for me, SF (and the other intimate EN for that matter) is a challenge because it is by its very nature INTIMATE.

And we all crave and simultaneously fear intimacy. Men stereotypically act out this dynamic in one way (physical sex drive) while women stereotypically act it out in another (mental masturbation, I mean, over-emotional/analytical conversation). And some men AND some women avoid both conversational and sexual intimacy altogether. While at the same time craving it. That is ME a lot of the time, so I'm speaking here more from personal experience than from a detached viewpoint.

So speaking from my own experience, my main "motivator" is to avoid intimacy due to known and unknown fears. I am mostly NOT aware of this motivation playing out in my life. However, this motivation is exactly what enables me to get caught up in the cycle of justification that I "can't" meet the need for SF unless my EN are met. And it is just that, a justification, a lie I tell myself so I can sleep at night.

I think there is something deeper that I am trying to communicate with that dynamic however. And that is, that I am VERY afraid of intimacy. I'm afraid of knowing and being known. And my justification is actually a "cry for help" if you will. It's my subconscious way of saying (to my partner), "PLEASE be safe for me." Because when I feel safe, then I will willingly open up.

The problem with this kind of thinking (other than the fact that it is mostly subconscious and I'm not aware until well after the fact) is that I am making my actions and choices dependant on another person's actions. Which is inherently NOT safe, even if their actions and choices are those which are protective and not abusive.

I'm not really sure what the answer is. My brain says "boundaries". My brain says, "Create your own safety" and "Practice detachment." However, those are nice platitudes, but I don't know what they actually look like in action within the context of a healthy marriage. I only know what they look like within the context of unhealthy relationships and crisis situations.

SD, then it is up to you to tell him you won't do that type of sex again and find a type that you both enjoy. If you continue to do sexual acts you don't enjoy, you will eventually become averse to sex and that will hurt you both. So, it must be enjoyable to you both.

I posted something like this over on TTT's thread but I'll expand on it a bit here.

Basically, for me, it boils down to this:

Each person's ENs are THE most important ENs in the world.

To them.

If I don't know you from Adam, I don't really owe you anything to meet those ENs. Then again, you're not looking at for for that, anyway.

If you are a friend, I will hopefully meet some of these ENs in some way in order to maintain the friendship, because I care about you as a friend. And in order for the friendship to survive, you are meeting some of my ENs as well. Otherwise, why stay friends?

If you are my spouse, then it becomes your responsibility to meet those ENs for me. And the reverse is true as well.

Here is where the area gets gray.

I have ENs. I want my spouse to meet them because he is the most important person in my world and his meeting my top ENs fills up my love bank and away we go to MB-land, happily ever-after. I have the same responsibility to him.

I do NOT have the right to issue SDs about having my ENs met.

For example, a wife who says to herself: 'well, he didn't do squat to help me around the house today, so I'm just going to go to bed tonight and tell him I have a headache.'

That's a selfish demand, because you are putting the worth of getting YOUR OWN ENs met before your spouse's. That's the very definition of selfishness.

The same can be said of the husband. "she wants affection, and cuddling and cards and hearts and flowers, huh? Well, maybe I'll come through with that after she is more accomodating in the bedroom."

Again a selfish demand.

Both husband and wife in this scenario never said a word to their spouse. But their thoughts were SDs.

So to everyone here claiming "well I can't do this for my spouse if s/he doesn't do that"

it's a selfish demand.

Cut it out.

Focus on your own actions.