yes ma'am

THANK YOU OH. That post made perfect sense. The part where you speak about ENs is what I have been trying to hammer home to some of the males (and their female co-signers) in this thread: Focus on meeting your spouse's ENs and not the sex you're not getting or the sex you feel you should be getting.

And please please PLEASE stop the talk about how "special" SF is and how not getting it hinders / prevents you from working on your marriage and meeting your partner's ENs. Stop with the "wiring" talk. ("Men are wired so that they simply cannot function without SF. Boo hoo hoo.") In my observation, "wiring" talk is often used to excuse people's bad behavior...when we all have control over our own behavior. (Doesn't MB teach that we control our actions / behavior?) "Wiring" talk and excuse-making is BS and we all know it. Sure, most people are happier when they are having great sex and many people do things in order to experience great sex; however, sex does not RULE us.

Everyone's ENs are "special". To them.

For men & women alike: The most important ENs for your focus are your spouse's ENs. And, you need to be working like mad to meet them. If, after a time you see no changes in your relationship and you are not getting your ENs met - further examination of the situation is warranted.

Everything I have said and what OH has said above is MB. I don't see why it's so hard for some of these men to get it.

Hi Sunny,

Sorry you're experiencing this. MB / Dr H says spouses should have sex which they both enjoy. To do it any other way creates the risk of one spouse developing sexual aversion.

Click here & see a letter which you may be able to relate to & how Dr H says that the POJA should be used to address this issue.

This is a good read too.

This confuses me.

What I mean is -
1) From real life: Sex without being intimate or without intimacy is possible. People do it all the time. (No pun intended. )
2) From MB: The meeting of ENs (including SF) is a path to Intimacy.

I believe you are feeling that meeting your H's need for SF (and theother ENs) "is a challenge" because you feel that your top needs are not being met. Having been through some stuff of my own in the past few weeks, I can tell you that I can totally understand how you feel about this. It's "Taker-itis" and totally natural.

Chris...

I think that by simply SAYING what you have said about men 'not getting it' you are ignoring our points in favor of your own. We understand PERFECTLY what you are saying and we agree...

However, it seems that you think of sex in the same light as conversation, affection, recreation, etc. And it is NOT and if you cannot see WHY it is inherantly different in both the action, effect, and who can fill this need, then all the posts on this board will simply pass you by.

NO... it is NOT more important than any other EN, male or female...

HOWEVER it is DIFFERENT and to ignore that difference is to ignore the reason it is so often craved by men and held off by women (generalization).

IF it was nothing more than the others, we would NOT be talking about it in such a way, this subject would also be being threaded about Housework, Financial support, etc. It is NOT because they are NOT the same. It is so heated BECAUSE it is not the same. It might not be MORE important... but it is NOT the same.

Reread the articles I posted and give me a corrolary for another emotional need in any form or fashion.

CFIO:

I am not going to get into an argument with you over whether or not SF is different than the other ENs.

What is *exactly* the same for both sexes is when one party starts making selfish demands to have their ENs met, setting expectations, etc.

Once you venture into "if this, then that" land, you are going to step on a land-mine somewhere.

Getting my affection need met from my cat and my conversation need met from my mother and getting my recreational companionship need met from my bandmates doesn't exactly make me love my H more.

So whether I can't stand to be near him because he's lousy in bed or because he's lousy on the phone doesn't really matter, in the end. Love Bank drains, marriage fizzles, kids become a statistic.

Mr. Cant,

I said SOME of the men....And - yes. SOME of the men here are not getting it. (No pun intended.) We have people in this discussion blaming The Women's Movement for women witholding sex from their Husbands (When the MB newsletters & other info say that often SF is the first thing to go when a wife is unhappy in her marriage. No mention of the Women's Movement there-LOL!) and...we have men saying they simply cannot bring themselves to work on their Marriage because they aren't getting SF and still others writing long tales about how their wives will not give them SF...or how they were cruelly denied SF.
Oh!

Truthfully - I don't think of SF as being any different than the other ENs because I am behavior-focused and results-oriented. Call this re-programming of my neural pathways via MB and some of the really good books recommended by the nice people @ this forum. The way I see it: SF is simply an EN my H has which is high on his list of ENs... and so I must work on it, like all the other high priority ENs he has if I want my marriage to improve & thrive.

The total MB plan to meet my H's top ENs and avoid doing LBs has improved my marriage. SF is a part of that plan.

I think you missed what I was saying. Which is that people are afraid of intimacy. They say that they want it. But when push comes to shove, they don't, not really, because their FEAR of intimacy is greater than their DESIRE for it. So they instead focus on justifying their behavior rather than looking at the REAL issue, which is ultimately a fear of intimacy (physical or otherwise).

Sexual fulfilment, and even "just sex" CAN be the path to initmacy. And that is precisely WHY some people avoid it (not just women). Because it's not the SF they are uncomfortable with. It's the intimacy that might actually result. Also the same reaosn why some may avoid meeting the other intimate EN.

I have pikced up on this trend in my own life. I am "wired" that way for whatever reason, but now being aware of it, I can accept it about myself and begin to take action to change my behaviors, and also my thinking, feelings and attitudes. Doesn't change the base fact that I am afraid of intimacy and that I have a track record of choosing partners who are in some way "defective" at being able to meet my EN. The fact that I chose my husband and also the other guys I've dated in the past is because by choosing someone with whom I feel "comfortable enough" but who are not willing or able to stisfactorily meet my intimate EN, I can put the blame on them instead of looking at myself.

And I was, and still am, very good at this. Take a look at my thread and see how easily I can put the focus on someone else, rather than myself. All to avoid intimacy.

Yeah, I can say till I'm blue in the face that I want an intimate anf fulfilling marriage. But the facts are that I self-sabatoge and self-justify NOT having an intimate and fulfilling marriage. And the issue of SF brings it to light mroe clearly than any other EN.

There's that too, but the PORH dictates that you let him know what you need in bed, for conversation, etc. If he still can't or won't provide it, then the onus is back on you to decide whether to continue to live like this, or separate/divorce.

I'm in a position where my spouse continues to participate in a massive LB (angry outbursts) despite my being upfront and radically honest about how they drain my lovebank. He continues to say "but you do XYZ" despite my saying that I understand all his LBs and am working to eliminate from my side, please let's keep the discussion focused on this LB for the moment. (which results in, oddly enough...another angry outburst...)

My spouse continues to not provide adequate FS despite my being radically honest that this is my #1 need at the moment.

So I am approaching a fork in the road. I need to decide that I will stay and live with the situation as it doesn't appear to be changing, or I will leave.

All the whining in the world from me is not going to change the reality of the situation.

Barring pathological issues, what you said here absolutely no sense to me.

You're right Think. I did not get that from anything you typed earlier.

If you are saying you selcted your H because he's unable to meet your ENs my next question is: Now what?

Not exactly the same. When my wife fails to meet a EN, it matters very much which one she fails to meet. The problem with refusing to meet SF is that, for many men, SF is far and away the highest priority EN. The amount of love bank draining that occurs when SF is mostly absent can be so massive that men go from intimacy to withdrawal literally overnight.

Yes, I know, there are LBs and lack of ENs that can do that for women as well.

Nevertheless, to the extent that one's spouse moving from Intimacy to Conflict to Withdrawal is a qualitative change in the nature of the relationship, playing with failure to provide SF is quite dangerous. The amount of effort needed to motivate a partner to move out of Withdrawal may be hugely disproportionate to the effort that would have been needed to maintain the spouse withi Intimacy to begin with.

I know there is literally nothing my wife can do to offset the absence of sex. For example, PA is one of my higher needs. Not as high as SF, but in my top 5 and maybe top 3. My wife recently lost over 50 pounds. She looks GREAT. I am so proud of her for the effort she has made over the past year. I love looking at her. Staring at her. I love the looks and comments she gets when we go out in public. Despite all of that, this enormous change registers hardly at all compared to the lack of sex.

She spends an hour a day (or more) 6 days a week at the gym. She fights against hunger pangs every waking moment. She spends hours planning meals and shopping for lower calorie ingredients and obsessing about what she will do during parties and family events. And all of that effort, welcome as it is, is as nothing compared to whether she spends half an hour once a week having sex with me.

Maybe each conversation I have with her has that much impact. But I doubt it. As others have said, if all the ENs are equal then why are all the 50 page threads about SF and not about the other ENs. SF is different. Harder to provide when you are not in the mood. And harder to do without when you are. Not fair in either direction. But unquestionably true.

For the record, I do let my H know exactly what I need and how I need it, and we have a great relationship now. And excellent sex, which is getting better all the time. (Of course, I ask him about what he needs and how he needs it as well.)

But I do remember how excruciating it was to WANT to hug him, but not being able to do it without a fight. And to WANT to talk, but ending up with a conversation that's worse than a root canal. And to WANT to spend RC, but being unable to get him enthusiastic for ANYTHING. And yes, to WANT to flirt and kiss and end up naked and sweaty, but either ending up rejected coldly OR having sex I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.

And no, the yearning for SF didn't feel different than the yearning for the other things. (OK, maybe not RC, because I'd just IB a lot and go with my friends.) But that's because my top 3 needs are Affection, Conversation and SF. And they're roughly equally important to me.

(I'm an SF snob, though - I can settle for a convo that starts off awkward and gets better after a few minutes, or a hug that starts off tense before it melts, but SF that starts off bad usually STAYS bad, which is why I'm not inclined to take a lot of risks with it and will usually WORK on the other two so I feel safe having SF again. Luckily, my H has Affection in the top 3, so I can get through to him w/affection and then ramp it up to SF.)

So, my ENS are:

Affection/Convo/SF
-
-
-
-
everything else.

If yours are:
SF
-
-
-
-
everything else,

I can see why SF is 'special' to YOU. But, that's just YOU.

Being ignored conversationally can hurt terribly, just like being ignored sexually can.

(OH, I'm sure my post will say I'm responding to you, again. Sorry 'bout that, I'm not trying to argue with you at all. :))

Gee, I can't remember ever having bad sex.

I understand that it can be painful for some women, and I am not faulting them. But for a normal, healthy person, how can SF be bad?

I absolutely agree with everything above Chris.

My wife is absolutely beautiful. A true 10 for me without any doubt. While Physical Attractiveness is a need for me, in the abscence of sex, this PA need being met so well is actually a NEGATIVE. I likened it to having a Ferrari in the driveway, everyone can see it and thinks 'Wow... what a lucky guy. You get to have that Ferrari and drive it whenever you want.' However the reality is, not only can you not DRIVE the Ferrari, but you constantly are washing, waxing, paying the payments, paying insurance and guarding it. But the keys are in your wife's purse... and she isn't letting you have them.

It was WORSE for me to have a beautiful wife who neglected me. Far worse IMO.

Worth repeating and re-reading.

Bad sex happens for me when I worry about disappointing my husband. I know you all have said I shouldn't engage in something I don't want to do but the feeling of disappointment is overwhelming.

Likewise, my husband takes great pride in making me "happy" with sex. Because of this he is too concerned with the outcome. He would often ask during sex if I have am ready to.....

Talk about pressure. If I had been, I wasn't anymore!

I also prided myself in being intuitive (which turns out is detrimental like over analaysis). I know what he likes based on conversations and his reaction to other women so I felt less than if I wasn't willing or able to provide it.

My experience with OM was so different because of my attitude. I naturally wanted to please him but I wasn't soo caught up in that. I knew (or at least he made me believe) that he couldn't do any better and was grateful for whatever....

I am now trying to parlay my feelings of "can do no wrong" to my husband but it is hard. I know him so well so I worry about how I look and smell and even the sounds I make during sex. He is so worried about whether or not I climaxed. No matter how often I discuss biology or friction or any other explanation, he takes it very personally....and having an affair didn't help matters.

Unfortunately I'm not normal and healthy, because I do hurt easily. Had the surgery and all.

I don't get aroused easily. (Or rather, I get aroused EXTREMELY easily from the right physical or mental stimuli, but those right stimuli are hard to come by from a spouse in conflict or withdrawal. And if I'm in conflict or withdrawal myself, I'm not likely to SEE the right stimuli either.)

And when I'm not aroused, all the giving mood of the world can't help me 'complete' an SF encounter without feeling terrible. Arousal is what makes the sensations in SF feel so good. When I'm not aroused, it's just panting and smooshing and pushing and puling and pinching and cramps and smells and this really freaky pulling and pushing on your innards. And it becomes a matter of tolerating it until he finishes. Which is horrible for me, and not exactly the pinnacle of love and eroticism for him either.

When I'm aroused, bring on the pushing and pulling and even the pain I get can feel good. (Sucks afterwards, because I find out that hey, something happened my body chose not to interpret as pain right then, but is happy to do it right NOW!)

My H has a 'sex drive' - he can sit around and watch the news and get an erection. I have an 'arousal response' - something has to happen that I find erotic for my body to get to work. And the news ain't it!