Because Sexual FULFILLMENT is virtually impossible within the context of a bad relationship for people who require emotional closeness to really get into the act of sex.

Recall that some of the women here are / were having please hurry up and get it over with sex. And some of the men here are sensing that this is what their wives are doing with them. And so, their wives RUN from sex. That's BAD sex.

A happy woman (who is healthy) does not RUN from sex.

Understand?

Also, I CAN'T get my mind around 30 minutes of sex once a month. That seems scarce to me...but if that's all it takes to make you happy - to each his / her own.

Hold, this thread is going on and on and SF is discussed ad infitinum because some of the men here think they're entitled to it and some of the women here think they can avoid it.

Welcome to the wonderful world of talking past each other.

One side is speaking Greek. The other is speaking Latin. Sigh.

Ladies, SF is different. Say what you want -- it is.

Which EN is the only one specifically mentioned as being exclusive to your spouse in the wedding vows?

Having a monopoly on the supply of what is far and away the number one EN for most men means there is a responsibility involved here. That responsibility involves not using it as a weapon.

And don't give me that crap that many women don't use it as a weapon. You know they do.

Not by the folks posting here. If that was the case, you wouldn't be posting here in the first place!

But it is different. It is special. And please admit it.

And for guys, simple self-interest directs the meeting of the wifely EN's. If you don't you reap what you sow -- or don't reap in this case.

Wow, good description of bad sex! I can almost feel it.

It can be bad if the person is asked to engage in a position or act that is disgusting to them. It has to be done in a way that is palatable and enjoyable to both. It has nothing to do with being "healthy," but with personal preference.

And I'm saying that whether it's different or not, is NOT what's up for discussion.

It's *how* you go about getting your ENs met. Are you more concerned with "getting yours" than giving to your spouse?

That's a selfish demand.

Are you thinking that you are justified in not meeting XYZ EN of your spouse's because of (fill in the blank)?

That's a selfish demand.

Are you insisting that your need jumps higher, runs faster, works harder than your spouse's EN?

That's a selfish demand.

If you have communicated that you have an EN (or ENs), and it/they are not getting met, then you communicate that you are unhappy.

And you communicate what you plan to do as a result of your unhappiness (i.e., your own actions, not threats or selfish demands).

And you continue to clean up your side of the street.

And eventually, you get to that fork on the road. Continuing down the same path dictates that you suck it up and deal...it ain't gonna change.

Or you choose to take the other path.

I'm not pointing fingers. I'm stuck at that fork myself. LBs that won't go away despite constant communication about them. ENs not being met despite constant communication.

Is it affecting my ability to meet my spouse's ENs? You betcha. I try not to let it affect my ability. That's my part of pulling the weeds by the fence.

If/when I choose to step out of this marriage, I want to make sure I did it all/tried everything so that I have no regrets.

And along the way, perhaps my marriage will turn around. That's my #1 preferred outcome.

It comes down to 2 things - as Dr Harley as pointed out numerous times - in order to make sex desirable for a woman, 2 conditions must be in place: an emotional connection to the man and the prospect of enjoyment.

If she doesn't feel emotionally connected to him, it is unlikely she will want to have sex. If he continually asks her to engage in sex acts that turn her off, she will be even more averse.

• Emotional Connection
  
  
• Prospect of enjoyment

heh... I used this as an 'example' of what some women on MB boards have stated as 'what they want' Once a month sex... if it was only once a month, I KNOW I couldn't hold out for longer than 30 minutes... unless you were counting foreplay.

I made the mistake, once, of trying to explain to my wife 'what I was looking for' in frequency/type. Thinking that maybe it would help her to understand me better.

I said, on average, I think I would typically be happy with 3 times a week. Maybe one 'quickie', one Bedtime sex (regular old loving couple before sleep sex) and then one thought out, massage/sex, etc etc etc, fireplace, wine... SOMETHING which was more involved.

My wife took it as a 'quota' and decreased SF even MORE. I thought of her as a Bear Trap. I would give her a half hour massage after a great dinner out. She would groan and moan about how great it was the WHOLE FRICKEN TIME and I mean CONSTANTLY. I would go from head to toe. But if I go a little 'too close' her legs would snap shut, ensuring that I knew that 'THAT' was not on the menu. She was perfectly willing to allow me to 'put in the time' but was unwilling to reciprocate. After that occurring more and more... I also, unfortunately, decreased the massages to the degree that I would shy away from even touching her, because all it would do would be to make me feel rejected. She would be more than willing to let me make HER feel good, but she 'Damn well wasn't going to work under a quota'.

Now I am concerned about EVER TELLING another woman what I would like, because I don't want her to do it under false pretences for a while to 'catch me' nor to view it as 'bowing down to my wishes'.

Mel, some of the fellas are saying that it doesn't come down to those 2 things which you laid out (no pun intended).

They are saying their need for SF is "special"...so very very special that they are simply UNwilling and / or UNable to provide the emotional connection that the woman needs for her to want to have sex.

I've been reading and re-reading the convo here about SF and EN's and trying to apply it to my sitch.

I think one thing that's being overlooked is LB's.

I can put myself out there and have SF with my H even when he's not fully meeting my EN's, and be ok with it. It doesn't seem to be a sacrifice or a hardship, though I might not particularly be "in the mood".

What is like pulling teeth for me, though, is to try to gear myself up for it through his LB's. I think that might be where some wires are getting crossed in the convo here. In my personal experience, it's a *little* hard to get geared up for SF with a H that's not meeting my EN's but it's not insurmountable. But a lot of times when I'm hearing stories about other H's, the W's are saying "he's not meeting my EN's" but when they start the details, it really sounds more like it's crossed into LB territory than just lack of EN's. And at least for me, the drain of the $LB from the LB's pushes me into a place where SF is abhorrent, and if I try, I'm doing the "just get it over with" and it's just S, not SF.

Of course, then my part of it that I need to own is that I don't keep communicating with him about the LB's. I have a bad tendency to tell him once, and then he should know. (Should's are bad, and my responsibility is to keep enforcing my boundary, not silently fume about him crossing it.) Only then can he either choose to keep pushing it or fix it, and I truly know whether our M is saveable.

Sorry for the ramble, but I wanted to put that out there while I'm thinking about it, it seemed more clear in my head.

I am not sure that we have been reading the same thread here...

Good thoughts AC. I agree...we've been saying not meeting ENs but we should also consider the drying effects of LBs.

Yes - LBs act as an ANTI Lubricant for relationships. (No pun intended.)

TaC...

that is true... LBs are a BIG issue, for alot of women on here I agree that it sounds as though the LBs might be more of an issue than ENs being unmet.

What do you ladies think? Certainly poor Hygeine would be a LB.

Expectation for SF without affection could possibly be a LB rather than unmet EN... What about that? ie Wham-bam-thank you man type of sex some men prefer. Is it the unmet EN or is it the LB of expectation without reciprocation?

Good thoughts TaC.

And Chris...
I have read this thread from the beginning, and even with the most STRINGENT men posting, I never heard them saying what you said in your last post. Maybe you could cut/past a couple of things which makes you believe that they are unwilling to do things, because SF is so special, they shouldn't have to try. I didn't get that in any post I read.

CFIO:
Not every woman is your wife. I know it's hard to think about opening up and trusting again, but when it gets to that time, that's what you will have to do. Hopefully by that time, you will also be well versed in MB strategies to be able to communicate this.

I had to be very honest w/ my husband...and he didn't take it very well. I love the massage/back rub, etc before SF. It's the. best. way. to get me right in the mood. Communicating that to him was the first challenge. He didn't want to accept that fact that I wasn't hot for him 24/7. I'm still not sure he gets it, but he is at least respecting that I am stating it as a fact.

And then there are the LBs, which don't happen in the bedroom, but they certainly travel there quickly enough for me to have a hard time engaging in SF at times.

You better catch up Mark. Lots of folks have weighed in & some very *interesting* POVs have surfaced. I know you're pressed for time though.

TAC and CFIO:

I think that's what I was trying to say, above.

Angry outburst? Again? Sorry, SF ain't gonna happen tonight.

yes, it's just that simple. Call me small-minded that I can't just let it go. But I find that time after time after time of telling him how much his AOs hurt and upset me and getting back "well yours hurt me too" or "ok, but we're past that now so let's move on"...

...gets OLD!

So, now we're at the point where someone will claim that I didn't read what I read "properly" or didn't see what I saw.... so I can be held "responsible" for the *controversy* or the *conflict*. Sorry - Not playing that game. I have already read that chapter in The Dance of Anger.

The SF "issue" is real. It has been discussed & debated long before I got here and it will be discussed long after my bones have turned to dust.

I have a problem providing DS. I can be very good at DS and even enjoy it as long as I don't have to do it all the time. When H gets frustrated because he has no clean pants or there are no forks, it makes me feel as if he doesn't think I am good enough, and DS really gets overwhelming. I work full time and am tired after work, so DS isn't fun, plus the cleaners make me sneeze. I need to feel that H appreciates the DS I do, otherwise I just don't want to do it, and if I don't get enthusiastic about dusting, then I shouldn't have to dust...orvaccuum....or do laundry...or mop. It is very hurtful that my H places so much importance on DS when it really isn't one of my top needs.

The above sounds really good. And really serious. And it's crap. I don't care if windex makes me cry and ironing makes me dream about spiders. DS is one of my DH's tops needs. So we can live in filth and he can live in misery...or I can get on my gloves and get to work.

Now, if all EN's are created the same, then the same should plly to SF, right? So I can be disconnected and miserable, OR my DH can meet my need for SF. OR we can play the which comes first, the dusting or the foreplay game. I'd prefer for us to just do what we are supposed to do. Because DH doesn't really care WHY our home becomes a pigsty...the bottom line is it's a pigsty. Now, if I want SF tonight and DH's sugar bottoms out at 40, then I am fine with waiting, and I understand why. But if - six months from now - we still haven't had SF, I pretty much no longer care why. I am climbing the walls. And he can either pontificate or he can drag my to the bedroom and get with it.

Luri, minor t/j here, but have you guys POJA'd the DS chores? Sounds to me like you are doing the lion's share.

I simply asked you to cut and paste a couple of things which led you to believe this was the case. I did NOT state that you misread or misunderstood what was written. I stated that I have read everything that you could have read, and did not come to the same conclusion. And therefore, I asked you to show me more specifically, the posts/wording, which led you to believe what you stated in the quote.