You are so bad LOL!

Chris, I think it all depends on perspective. From the perspective of withdrawl, fighting is an improvement in the direction of intimacy. In terms of the "three stages" that Harley talks about, one leads their spouse from withdrawl through conflict back to intimacy.

So when looked at in that way, when the "intimacy stage" follows the "conflict stage" it is actually "make up intimacy." Whether that takes the form of flowers, a night out, or SF.

Most of us don't get in the intimacy stage and stay there. Most of us go back into conflict. And it's not because we "slip." It's because people naturally have differences. Conflict is not necessarily a BAD thing, and for those of us living with the seething unspoken kind of conflict that leads to withdrawl, open conflict is a HUGE improvement.

The question is what to do when you get to conflict. Well, for those who don't have or use POJA, open fighting is the best option. Luckily, we have something even better in the POJA. And I can see where someone like ML who has been using it for a while would see that anything less than POJA in conflict would be incredibly awful. But for those starving for ANY communication, even BAD communication, and good honest fight is better than withdrawl.

seriously, then your hubby must really have to mind his P's and Q's around you.

my wife is the same way...cross her and you'll pay, so for the longest I avoid conflict and basically let her walk all over me, b/c I knew that if I stood up from something that may just piss her off, I'd be cut off...and she will cut me off...

here's an example...our daughter is 5 and youngest son is 4...our daughter is in kindergarten and her teachers said she may need to repeat kindergarten...now we have a problem...we have our youngest starting kindergarten next year...

do we put them both in kindergarten or hold our son back a year? she wanted my opinion and I said that if our son is ready, why hold him back...if we do hold him back when he's ready, he may not be challenged next year and get bored, because he's ahead of the other students...(btw, we had him tested and he's more than ready to start kindergarten)...she didn't like my opinion...thought I was "insensitive" to the situation...and she pushed me to see it her way...

and in perfect passive aggressiveness behavior, I was cut off from SF for almost two weeks...over this...and we really didn't even argue...i just didn't give her what she wanted, my enthusiastic agreement to hold our son back...

so we went to our counseling session and carried this "disagreement"/ "conflict"/ "argument" whatever you want to call it with us...without me saying a word our therapist agreed that we shouldn't hold our son back when he's more than ready to start...

amazingly she saw that I wasn't some clueless klutz who didn't know what he was talking about...but I didn't relish in my "victory"...I told the counselor that I agreed, but we will still discuss it and have a sit down meeting with her teacher and principle and discuss our options...oh and she initiated SF that evening...

I understand the three states of mind in marriage and how we flow from one to the next. I still disagree with your POV on this. And, you know what - that's OK.

My POV is fighting includes LBs, so negotiations and POJAing should replace fighting. I do not believe that fighting is not made OK or erased by "make up" activity. In fact, the "make up" activity - be it SF, Affection, or RC, etc seems contrived if the couple goes right back to LBing during differences of opinion. It can also serve to keep them "stuck." They don't learn to negotiate - just fight and then "make up."

I read in the Love Busters Book that if communicating means massive Love bank withdrawls (such as those experienced in a "fight"), the couple would be better off not communicating. Open fighting doesn't seem to be the next best option at all although open fighting is a better sign for the relationship than the "silence" of Withdrawl.

I think ALOT OF DYSFUNCTIONAL couples withdraw. However, I remember one time my mom and dad arguing... perhaps the ONLY argument I ever saw between them in front of me. They were pretty heated, and my dad turned on his heel and walked away. He got about 15 feet, stopped, his shoulders slumped a bit, he turned around and came back to my Mom, who was equally distraught and sad. He came within about 3 feet of her, opened his arms and didn't say a word. She stepped up to him, hugged him, and they walked into the bedroom and closed the door. I 'suspect' I know what happened afterwards... That was the only argument I ever saw between them, and they certainly didn't withdraw or have detrimental love bank withdrawal to the point of taking a week to come back together. They used the pain of the argument to REAFFIRM their love for each other.

Mel... I don't think that arguing is good. However, I don't think that the natural effect has to be a week of withdrawal from your spouse. I have SEEN otherwise in a couple who absolutely CHERISH each other.

Mr A,

I am asking Mel these specific questions because she is like my H in this regard.

For me, it's incredibly frustrating to deal with a spouse who can hold onto things like this; however, I am happy to report that I recently managed to shorten the "recovery time" he required during the last occurance.

I would really like to understand the process of what folks like this go through a lot better.

IMO, gearing my actions / behaviors towards Negotiations and POJAing goes a long way towards keeping this sort of thing to a minimum.

Neither do I.

My point was that the O&H of a fight, in the absense of ever having experienced POJA, may actually naturally LEAD to SF. Like I said, I've never had makeup sex. But I have had makeup making out, and it was most definitely NOT contrived. In fact, in that relationship, we both had a tendancy to CREATE conflict just to keep ourselves from going into withdrawl, and the only times we had physical intimacy were after creating said conflict. Part of the reason the relationship ended was because while I was happy with this conflict/intimacy dance, even with all its LB, he finally got tired of it and broke up with me. Neither of us was very healthy, as we had been going on this way for about a year, but eventually he got healthier and set a boundary, and I didn't like it, and he stopped playing the game, and it ended. Took me MANY years to see my part in that game, however.


These two sentences contradict each other. I don't understand. The first sentence says that it is better to not communicate (withdrawl) that to fight and LB. The second sentence says that fighting is better than withdrawl.

Chris, you are fighting with a lot of straw men of your own construction.


NO, they think both spouses agreed to love and honor each other in their wedding vows, which means don't just cut the grass, take a bath, go to work, or make love only when you feel like it. You have a duty to work on feeling like it and developing and cultivating good habits that nurture love.


NOT TRUE. Many men and women have posted here about wives (including some there themselves) having their needs met, and being happy with making love only once a month or less. They really like sex;, but only when everything is perfect, there is nothing else to do, and the stars aligned.


NO, Mark and I gave specific examples of how the Women's Movement tried to legitimize a selfish culture of female autonomy that dishonors marriage, in many ways. Encouraging irresponsible behavior among women to bring them down to the level of boorish men is not a way to improve women. And a lot of women who grew up in the 1960s and 1970s now say it was a bunch of garbage they rejected by the 1980s when they finished growing up. Amazon is full of books on that subject, by women. Many women continue to get bad ideas about sex, marriage, and relationships with men from their mothers, sisters, friends, and entertainment, without even being aware of Kate Millet, Gloria Steinem, or any other wannabe liberated women.

Eew

Just kidding.

I meant to say, "Awww."

Mel, no disrespect intended, but do you think that your husband might feel anything at all like this? ^

If he does, you might not actually know it, because silence is often thought of as tacit approval.

I am NOT trying to confrontational. I am stating that I did the same thing as Mr. A in this regard, trying to skirt the issues because dealing with them only caused MORE trouble and less ENs meeting.

Forgive me - but that sounds sick.

Also, I was told HERE in another thread that there is no O&H while LBing. DJs, SDs, and AOs are not O&H.


I did not find these concepts to be contradictory when I read them. One is saying avoid Love Bank withdrawls, the other is saying that open fighting is a sign the couple is in the Conflict Stage - which is better than being in the Withdrawl Stage because iin Conflict the spouses are willing to allow each other to meet ENs but in Withdrawl meeting an EN is like breaking through a super duper reinforced forcefield.

Now who's doing the Straw Man here? LOL!

I will agree to disagree with you at this point. You need the energy you are using for this thread to meet your wife's ENs so she'll meet your need for SF.

Sorry, my black and white thinking was getting in the way again.

And yes, that relationship WAS sick. I was 23. I cut myself a lot of slack because I've learned better. And I was doing a lot better than a lot of other 23 year olds I know.

In the absence of MB, the fighting present in conflict is better than the silence of withdrawl. With knowledge of MB, fighting is a LB to be avoided, period.

This is what I was saying Think.

BTW-I had a lot of B & W thinking when I came here on certain matters & now I have come to B & W thinking on other matters. B & W thinking can be OK sometimes...

hey... I am with you on the whole Eew! thing.... I was found in a snowbank... at least that's what everyone always told me.

Chris, I didn't think I had to actually look up and post your exact quotes, but...


Response



Like others who responded to that, I could not find any men saying any such thing, either.

I don't want to argue with you about something men didn't say.
I would rather discuss what women and me DO say, and try to learn from THEM.

Man, I am just SO psyched to get started on the Class!

We got our first assignment already!

Ok - ask me anything and I'll answer honestly from my POV - not sure how much that will help because I may or may not be like your spouse when it comes to certain things.

I don't have a question for you, Chris.

Do you have an explanation for those husbands who posted early in this thread about meeting all their wives needs, but their wives are just fine with SF a few times a year? Do you think that is a healthy relationship? I don't.

My wife is a former investment banking executive who quit to move with my career and become a SAHM. She has taken a lot of snide comments from other 'career women' about her choice, many of whom have no idea that she ever had a job. As she says, they aren't very liberated if they can't respect anyone who lives differently than they do.

Yes, my H does mind his P's and Q's; BUT SO DO I. We strive to not piss each other off..EVER. We NEVER fight. And we don't punish each other.

However, my H does not "avoid conflict" and if he allowed me to walk over him, I would be disgusted because I hate a wimp. ugh... We do not avoid conflict and we do not punish the other for expressing his/her opinion.


This is something that should have been resolved using the POJA, where one person does not WIN at the expense of the other, but a solution is found that pleases you BOTH.


In other words, you win and your wife loses. Was your wife enthusiastic about that agreement? Rather than teaching you how to resolve conflicts in an effective way, the counselor called the winner. I don't see how that helps your marriage one bit. So what do you do the next time you have a conflict? Call the counselor? That seems to me to be a good way to keep you coming back forever.

I would check into Marriage Builders, if I were you. The concepts used here are much more effective and will lead to romantic love. When you get into the habit of using the POJA, your conflicts are not damaging as yours have been.