You guys are missing the point. Conflict has not disappeared from our marriage. We just handle conflict in an effective way that does not kill the love in our marriage. Having fights is not an effective way to address conflict; it does not work. The solution to conflict is to address it head on without lovebusters. Just because we don't fight, doesn't mean we don't have conflict. It just means that we resolve it in NEW WAYS. We don't use lovebusters and we stick to the POJA. That does not mean that my H is a wussy boy who runs from conflict. We have conflicts EVERY DAY. We just handle them in better ways. And the more you do this, the more it becomes second nature. We don't practice WIN/LOSE, we practice WIN-WIN or nothing is done.

On the other hand, staying silent when one is unhappy is just as destructive. We follow the policy of RADICAL HONESTY and both fully believe in making open and honest COMPLAINTS when warranted.

The way we handle conflict now ensures that neither person is "pissed off" or withdrawn, which means that no one gets cut off. I can't even remember the last time we had a fight and I felt withdrawn it has been so long. Perhaps years.

This is what I am trying to understand more of myself and my spouse also.....he sees the POJA as still "someone doesn't get what they want"....he says it won't produce a win win situation.....so let's say he wants to go hunting for a week...I say I am not enthused....he says he is not enthused to not be able to go hunting....we stare at each other and nothing is done according to the POJA.....so in his eyes he lost....so why do the POJA? When he can simply IB and do as he pleases???

I don't see this working in my marriage and YES I am having a really depressed down in the dumps kinda day today.

And fights are dreadful on the marriage....don't need MB to tell me that....and it easily would take me a week to stuff it down and force myself to try and get over it....not a way to live at all...horrible....I have been doing better and no fights for a month now....I plan on steering clear of that at all costs no matter.

Anything that benefits ONE at the expense of the other should be eliminated. check out the rest of the article here: Following the Policy of Joint Agreement When You're VERY Incompatible

gemstone,
Let's use your example instead of SF.

Your husband already uses POJA at work to get time off to go hunting for a week.

As in any ongoing conflict, there are multiple underlying issues that both of you need to put on the table.

Why does he want to go hunting for a week instead of a weekend, especially if it is not far from home?

Is his hunting or other activity taking precedent over time with his wife and family? Do they have to forgo vacation as a family, or vacation time at all, or spend less on vacation because of his solo vacation. Why so?

The key is not to may it WHAT he will do, just HOW he plans to do it without it being at the expense of his family? If he wanted to spend $2,000 on this hunt, HOW would he plan to get the money without taking it from something the family needs? Maybe he can. If he can't, he should wait until he can figure a way to do that. It is the same with time.

Do you want him to totally stop hunting? That would be a problem. But if you sincerely want him to continue his hobbies, but just put them in balance with your needs, you will make it clear that you want him to go hunting, but you just don't see HOW he can do it for a week (or whatever it is he wants to do). Let him explain HOW he plans to do it without shortchanging the family financial security, recreational companionship with you, and family time.

gemstone, this is exactly WHY I had suggested getting coaching with Steve Harley in your situation. You and your H are extremely incompatible because of his independent behavior and if anyone can sell him on giving up that LOVEBUSTER for a great marriage, Steve Harley CAN.

The happiness your H can have from an in-love, romantic marriage will far exceed anything he could ever get from hunting. But he doesn't KNOW THAT. He doesn't understand how that can work. That is what Steve can do.

Have you set up an appointment yet?

gemstone, he will likely have to completely give up his hunting. If he loves it as much as you say, then it would have to go. Dr Harley explains why here:

Why Should a Couple Plan to Be with Each Other When They Are the Happiest?

Then let me know when you do. As I said before, I will answer honestly if you have a questions for the females.

I am unwilling to explain other people's disapproval for your wife's lifestyle choices and unqualified to answer questions about odd marital circumstances.

There is ALWAYS a more POJA resistant spouse. Dr. Harley even gives a "taker" test, for lack of a better term, at the MB weekend seminar to glean which spouse is more likely to struggle with POJA and applying MB so they can focus more attention on keeping that "taker" spouse onboard.

I don't think you can get a "taker" on board with merely presenting the POJA and saying "Wa-laa, let's do this". He (or she) is not going to be enthusiastic about adopting POJA if he (or she) is not yet in love with you AND if they don't see it working on smaller stuff first. You have to build trust FIRST for POJA to work. Which is why Dr. Harley STARTS the POJA lessons with grocery shopping. Trying to throw a POJA guantlet down and then getting discouraged when your spouse won't unquestionably adopt it is a mistake. Learning POJA is a process. A never ending process that I'm still not great at.

In your example above...you likely knew going in that getting him not to go hunting was a losing proposition...so intead, try to figure out a trade or something he can do AND go hunting. Such as, "I'll be enthusiastic about you going hunting if you'll take a day off with me and go to XYZ alone with me and we can have some fun together, have dinner and spend the night. Then...you'll have the chance to make meet each others needs and hopefully strengthen and build love units in his love bank. He'll LIKE poja because, this time it got him what he wanted...your enthusiastic agreement he could go hunting AND alone time with a happy wife. In time, you might up the ante and ask for MORE to be enthusiastic.

In the end, though Dr. Harley says ELIMINATE all independent behavior, the IDEAL is going to be very difficult for many spouses to achieve. Not that trying isn't worthy...just being realistic...a guy who has hunted for YEARS with his buddies isn't going to immediately (or ever) give that up. Such DOESN'T have to be the breaking point of building as MB a marriage as you can.

Instead it appears you ended up love-busting him, getting mad and distressed and falsely giving him the impression that MB & POJA both suck. [I am not justifying his position...just trying to get you to work WITH it rather than against it]

Just a tip.

Mr. W

gemstone, better yet, if you can swing it, get him to a MB weekend. We go through a lesson plan that eliminates Independent Behavior in one of the lessons. [and yes, this is a lovebuster] You would have a coach and the support of Dr Harley in helping him eliminate his IB.

ML, thanks for posting that article. I had never come across it before!

Had a conversation tonight with husband about PPOJA. And this was his primary concern. Giving up the things he finds pleasureable because they upset me. He doesn't think that's fair. Because HE's not bothered by MY IB (which used to be really bad but I have made huge strides at removing in recent months.)

FYI, I didn't throw down the gauntlet. Just said that if an activity comes up that one of us would want to do alone, that we should consider how full the calendar already is, and also consider the other person's feelings. And admitted that sometimes I'm not honest about what I think and that I will try to be upfront and honest right away instead of stuffing it.

TTT I agree with your above statement completely.

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TTT... think it through. POJA doesn't say he CAN'T do anything because you don't want it. It says not to do things you BOTH aren't enthusiastic about. NOW... think it through. POJA allows you to negotiate things in order for YOU TO BECOME ENTHUSIASTIC as well, not simply reserve veto power.

For example... Certainly, you could POJA and state that NO, you can't go hunting. 'nuff sayd.

HOWEVER YOUR GOAL ISN'T simply to keep him from hunting, or if it is, then the problem is YOUR perception. NOW... hunting might certainly be bad for your marriage, however, is there a way, that you could see, in which HIM going hunting will allow YOU to be enthusiastic about it as well? If you found 'enthusiasm' in him going, then it would be a win/win situation.

So, is there a way in which you could be enthusiastic about hunting? Or HIM going hunting? Would you be enthusiastic about him going a DAY if you knew that it would help him to feel more love, thereby YOU feeling more love as well. (not a tit for tat sort of thing, but YOU giving and him receiving and YOU feeling good about it?)

POJA is certainly NOT something I have ever done, because it requires a willing spouse, and I have not had one. However, as i have read it, it means that yes, if you aren't enthusiastic about it, it shouldn't be done. But perhaps your goal could be to learn some way to be enthusiastic about it as well, at least in some fashion. Thereby, the POJA remains intact, your love bank is filled, HIS love bank is filled, and you both win? How about 2 days with you in attendance? 3 days? etc. Otherwise, POJA turns into a simple veto which seemingly could become a weapon rather than a boon.

I think the hard part is realizing that POJA means that you are BOTH STRIVING to improve your marriage at all costs. If I know that my wife would be happier if I 'let' her go out to lunch with her friends, then it is up to me to find out if I can be enthusiastic about it. Sometimes I might be, but if it takes her from me, and I feel hurt because of it, then it shouldn't happen. IT certainly isn't as straight forward as it sounds. And shouldn't be merely a veto to remove things your spouse enjoys. Because if you do... you won't actually be improving your marriage at all.

IMO

Someone (Retread?) here does practice POJA with a spouse who is not on board. His wife is not unwilling but has not bought into MB. So he uses the lingo anyway. If he suggests something and she either isn't nuts about it or says she doesn't care, he'll offer to find another solution/idea that she can say she's as enthusiastic about as he is.

So I think it's possible.

I agree. You can do POJA with someone without them "knowing" it...

That's right, OH. (Good timing! I just dropped in for a second.)

I am enforcing POJA by not doing things if my wife is not enthusiastic. If I am remodeling something, I ask her what features she wants. If she says she doesn't care, I tell her I am going to put it aside until she is enthusiastic about it. I am not going to do something and then have her say later that she doesn't like it, or it should have had this or that. And I use the lingo. "We are going to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement".

She knows now where I am getting this, because I told her. And yes, she is still hard-headed enough to refuse to read any of the MB books (at least to my knowledge). I guess I kicked things off the wrong way by saying, "Wow, I am reading the best nuts-and-bolts books on marriage I ever read", which she took to be a red flag, as in, "What's wrong with our marriage? What's wrong with me?"

My problem is that my job required a lot of overnight travel, sometimes all week, or for months, where I could only come home on the weekend, or every other weekend. She liked the high income, but she became very independent, and Boss of the House. It's kind of like when men retire and suddenly are around a SAHM, who doesn't want so much of their input, attention, ideas, suggestions, etc. I realized it was a problem long ago, and rearranged my work, and continue to "reinvent" my career, turning down lucrative projects that don't SERVE my marriage and family time.

And I love hunting, but I minimized that long ago. I try to arrange hunting or fishing on some business trip. That way, I get in a day of what I like without the lost time from home or the extra expense of travel. It is much easier to go to Canada while on business near the border, than it is from where I live.

The goal may well be to keep him from hunting if it harms the marriage. And it should end if it does. In the case of gemstone's marriage, her H's favorite recreational activity IS hunting and because of that ALONE, it should be eliminated. [IF THEY WANT TO HAVE A ROMANTIC MARRIAGE] Things that are bad for the marriage, such as affairs, should be eliminated no matter how enthusiastic the partners are IF THEY WANT TO HAVE A ROMANTIC MARRIAGE. If a recreation takes away from the marriage in the way hunting does in gemstone's marriage, it is as harmful as an affair or swinging.

In Dr Harleys article, he points out that it is ok to have independent rec activities, but if is a spouses FAVORITE RA, it needs to be eliminated entirely. [IF THEY WANT TO HAVE A ROMANTIC MARRIAGE] read here

Learning to fall in love with each other is not the easiest thing in the world for those who have fallen out of love as many have here, but it is made all the harder when folks try to cut corners and find ways to NOT follow the concepts. Unfortunately, the only ones they cheat are themselves. As anyone will tell you who actually has an in-love marriage, the concepts have to be worked in their entirety to get their desired result. Half measures availed us nothing.

And again, that's IF YOU WANT TO HAVE A ROMANTIC MARRIAGE. The concepts are entirely voluntary, no one has to ever work a single one. Folks will get out of this program what they put into it.

To reiterate what Dr Harley outlined in the article linked above:

Why Should a Couple Plan to Be with Each Other When They Are the Happiest?

Retread, and did you tell her what was wrong with the marriage?

i suspect he has told her numerous times.

The discussion about makeup sex has come up on themarriagebed more than once and there are many women there that say they crave makeup sex after a fight. But I "believe" that these are women that would have SF at the top of their ENs list, and like Dr. Harley says, this is not as common.