do you have time to POJA when you and your spouse is driving in an unfamiliar city with a city map and the bickering begins?

I would just like to know how you were able to move your husband and you so far so fast?

I tried for almost 4 years, albeit unsuccessfully, and couldn't get my wife to even THINK about POJA at all. And over the course of 4 years, as much as I tried... I couldn't understand her enough to develop an idea about what she wanted. She would state things very clearly that she 'wanted or didn't want or believed or didn't believe' and we (family) would act upon that understanding. Only to have her say something contrary a month later. When we queried her about the discordance... 'even her oldest daughter would ask'... she would say "Hmmm... I said that? I don't remember... Oh well." We would just sit there stunned and in disbelief, because we would have been ACTING ON THAT INFORMATION all that time. I honestly would NOT be surprised if she was eventually diagnosed with MPD at some point in her life... it was that incongruent and difficult to live with.

For you and your husband to NOT fight and be able to POJA consistently just blows me away. I am envious!

But we didn't fight... we never even got to the STAGE of fighting before I was running for cover! The eyebrows went down, literally the fingers would claw, she would turn to me with hate in her eyes, and I would look for a fallout shelter. Fighting was rare in our house... but more common than communication.

CFIO, I think the prerequisite for successful POJA is honesty. And the situation you described seems to demonstrate DISHONESTY on the part of your wife.

We women are accused of "changing our minds" an awful lot, and fairly too. Actually, it isn't that I've "changed my mind," as much as it is that I was not honest to start with, because as much as I'm comfortable with conflict, I'm not comfortable with LOOSING or being out of control, and if I'm actually honest and my spouse disagrees with me, I am afraid I won't get my own way, and so I go along to get along until I can manipulate the situation in my favor.

Boy, is my 4th step going to be fun or what?

TTT...

There was certainly dishonesty... in fact that was the ONE thing you could count on... That you COULDN'T COUNT ON ANYTHING!

She would become furious and/or agressive and/or diverting (often) and/or evasive. You would hear one thing, see another, and recognize yet something else. Then she would accuse me of being 'dishonest'. I would stand there just wondering what planet she was living on, and whether she would ever visit mine.

POJA is not a verb. It's a policy that you follow. All the time, hopefully.

It doesn't take any time to make sure you are following the POJA all the time. Do not do anything without the enthusiastic agreement of your spouse. So, if you are driving in an unfamiliar city with a map and bickering about where to go ... STOP.

Cant,

How did I do it?

By ravenously eating up the MB info, implementing it like mad, persistence, and pain - more than a few 2 x 4s from the MB crew.

Also important: My H wants me and he wants our family and he wants a happy life. He started out very negative, but when I showed him what was possible, it made things easier than they would have been *otherwise. (*For example - if he were involved in an affair...)


I found that observation of my H's responses to my actions served me best - talking ...not so much. People can say they like ABCDXYZ and their behavior (response) demonstrates they actually like 123987. Sometimes, it isn't malicious. A person may really not know themselves enough to know what they want. This is often the case with females...we are so used to de-selfing in our intimate relationships. (Please see the thread about the book The Dance of Anger, for a description of de-selfing. You'll need this info if you're dealing with a female...) The de-selfing thing is Emotional Dishonesty. She may very well have MPD, but I would be willing to wager that she is a big de-selfer aka someone who engages in Emotional Dishonesty because many women do this to keep their relationships steady. (Please see that thread!)


Yes, amazingly...we're not "fighting" anymore - but we are far from perfect. For example, over the past few weeks I have had to diffuse an oncoming AO or three - which I think I shared in my thread. Also, I feel that I still do a lot of leading in that area though he really tries. (At first I was getting annoyed at being the "lead" - typical feelings for the spouse who "goes first"... but as I see how much it is paying off, those feelings are subsiding.) Anyway...about the non-fighting POJing - My H has not yet learned MB, so he isn't consciously and deliberately doing all the steps needed for POJA. Something I would like to see is my H learn about POJA. We are signed up for the Weekend Seminar & Accountability Program (online) so, it shouldn't be too much longer.


I am certainly no expert; however, I hope that my experience has helped you...Seriously - If you've been trying something for 4 years and it hasn't worked, please try something different. You may be pleasantly surprised. I was.

MrA, the POJA is intended to resolve conflicts, that has nothing to do with bickering in stressful situations. Bickering would fall under lovebusters and when you follow this program you stop doing it. My H and I don't bicker and fight anymore. We settle stressful situations with respect.

It seems like you are spending alot of your time trying to find ways NOT to work the program instead of ways to work it. Why is that?

What are you doing to advance the state of your marriage?

I think the Makeup SF that's always talked about doesn't come after a major argument about something of great substance.

It usually happens after one of those pissy blowups. You know, he had a really bad day at work, she's working on the wrong phase of the moon, one of dogs ate your running shoes or your toddler threw an entire bowl of Cheerios and trashed the carpet. Someone says something biting, the other responds, and katy-bar-the-door, the yelling starts

The Makeup SF comes when you realize you weren't fighting with your spouse. You were fighting with the world and they got in the way.

Then you reconnect and, voila, it's all good.

On the other hand, we DID experience the Makeup SF that doesn't fit that mold. It's called Hysterical Bonding, and way too many of us here on this board know about what it takes for that to happen.

I enjoyed the Bonding part, but hated the Hysteria that led to it.

POJA is not what is needed in that situation. Avoiding LB is.

So since we've gone off topic anyway.

How do I POJA with my husband when he takes anything I say to be the way it has to be and just goes ahead with it and only afterwards tells me why it wasn't a good idea?

I try to approach a problem from the idea that if I say what I would really like or not like, then he can do the same and we can find a way to meet both our most important likes or dislikes so neither of us feels put out.

Stupid example, we managed to spend the whole day arguing the other day because we had loads of errands to run and I had said that I needed a break from the kids. So he assumed he had to take both kids and go and do all the errands (because I've moaned in the past about hating having to do the heavy shopping that was involved in one of the errands) and he just started to get them ready. He never said anything about being unhappy but he stopped speaking to me and making eye contact and his demeanor was different. So I was trying hard to get him to just slow down and talk to me and we could work out a way to get everything done between us but then he was angry with me for interfering.

I have spent two years working so hard on making it safe for him to share things with me, and it always seems like we're making progress and then things seem to slide back and he stops talking to me again.

Rosey...

If I was in your husband's mood, I probably wouldn't be able to hear you at that moment, his self-righteousness about having to 'do' the kids like that probably clouded his ability to hear. And when you tried to essentially say 'NO... that's not what I meant' he might have felt that 'Great... here we go, she says ONE thing then when I do it she wants ANOTHER thing. Well, damn it I am Not going to play that game.' At least I can see him thinking in this way from MY standpoint. IT isn't right, of course, but that is immaterial.

I would try to give him a 4 sentence explanation of what you meant, in an offhand manner at a safe and happy time. NOT in a direct 'you misunderstood what I meant' way, that is a DJ. But maybe when you are standing around doing something else, quiet together.

"Honey, the other day when you took the kids on all those errands... When I said I needed a break from the kids, I didn't mean for you to TAKE the kids and go do all of that stuff. I was just talking. I would rather have worked out something where you and I BOTH could have had a better day. Maybe if You had gone 'heavy shopping' alone, then I could have run some of the other errands, that would have given me the break I needed, and you wouldn't have needed to take both the kids with you the whole time."

Then just kinda keep doing whatever you are doing WITHOUT talking about it any more unless he brings it up. It sounds like the last thing your husband will be interested in is you 'changing your mind' in HIS thoughts. He is hearing you based upon how you have taught him to hear you. Right or wrong, he has developed these thoughts based upon your mutual history. These little 'drive by honesty/thoughts' might not change anything overnight, however, next time that situation occurs, he might remember this 'safe' conversation and think, OK, maybe she ISN'T saying what I think I hear.

Just some thoughts. It seems that your husband hears what he hears but can't POJA yet. But maybe if you constantly work with SHORT, SAFE explanations and desires at OTHER SAFE times, then he will begin to BELIEVE you. At this point, it just doesn't sound like he believes what you are saying.

Rosey,

Wow you perfectly depicted a problem that we have. My husband will seemingly agree with me and then one of 2 things happens. He either does what I request even though he had thought of a better idea, OR, he does what he thought was better anyway without discussing it. Oftentimes his idea is better but I am already infuriated that he went ahead and did it without acknowledging it.

I am trying very hard to give him ample opportunity to express himself and feel safe doing it. Once I do that, then I try not to feel guilty for doing what I want if he hasn't expressed disagreement.

POJA is not working for us right now because he is still trying to say the "right" thing...not the thing he really feels.

we knew where we were going...that wasn't the issue...

ummm...I have a technical, physiological type SF question to ask, but I don't want to go over the line or anything. And I can't figure out how to do that thing Pep does where it "hides" part of what you type. How do you do that? I went on this "Christian" site called themarriagebed to ask, but it was....graphic over there.

What do you mean, graphic? Now I'm all intrigued

By graphic, I mean positions, which parts to shave and what a turn on it is, and it's all co-ed. A breeding ground for A's if you ask me. Okay, this is very very personal.

Yikes!

A breeding ground for something anyway

Okay, let me reword it:

If you are driving in an unfamiliar city with a map and bickering about how to get where you are going ... STOP.

It's the same either way.

If your wife doesn't want you taking Blue Street and says you need to take Green Street and you aren't willing to take Green Street, then you stop. You don't go anywhere without the enthusiastic approval of both of you.

I think it is worth the try.

I know there have been a few times when something caused pain, but he was fine in a day.

I think the anxiety about pain would be worse, though.

Also, would you feel OK about having the SF be "all about you" so to speak?

There have been times when I experience pain with intercourse, and then have a fear of trying again, especially if I'm in the two weeks following ovulation. Very dry and I'm shaped differently inside. So I might be inclined to have the SF be just for my husband's pleasure. Or, sometime we have evenings where he just stimulates me and there is no intercourse or expectation that I return the favor.

Hope my answer wasn't too graphic.