Thanks, n_w!

I just read "Testimony of a Fool". Would it be unwise for me to send a link to my WW?

SF-Until you know for sure that you are dealing with a FWW, you should NOT tell her about this site and this forum. As a BS, we are learning so much on here and we get excited and we want to share what we have learned with the person we love. You will actually execute a love buster by trying to "educate"(which won't work anyways because that pea soup fog is too thick). You will also remove your best resource, THIS PLACE. You need this forum and the advice here. Your WW can NOT find out about this place until/unless she becomes a recovering WW.

Thanks! She knows about the MB site. The other day she said she thinks I've elevated Dr. Harley to near-godlike status. I haven't. I've just not come across another method which makes as much sense as his. I've tried to do a whole lot of educating over the past 3 months. I'm sure you know how effective that's been.

I've been thinking about how I might introduce the "I won't live in a loveless marriage. If you want me to stay in this marriage, here's the plan" discussion with her. What should be in my plan? I'm so confused right now that my mind moves between two extremes, sometimes within the same minute (from "I'm going to see a D lawyer today", to "it doesn't matter how long it takes I'm going to stick with it"). NC is an absolute, but from there I doubt my giving away the farm is a good plan. To this point I've done everything she's asked me to do, and if she's calling him from the guestroom, facilitating her A in the process. To get what I feel we need as a couple (e.g. agreement to attend MB weekend, formulate recovery plan), how much can I use my willingness to let her have her way? When do reasonable demands become lovebusting selfish demands?

Something positive actually happened this evening. We lost water in our neighborhood. (Sounds like a strange connection, doesn't it, losing water being a positive thing. I must REALLY be down! ) WW comes home from work, wants to clean up. I suggested she look into staying in a hotel for the evening and take her shower there. Here's the good thing: she didn't take me up on the offer, and before she declined she asked our daughter if she'd like to spend the night in a hotel room with mom. If the A is ongoing I handed her a gift. I know there are other possible explanations (e.g. OM out of town), but for now I choose to look on the positive side of things, if for no other reason than self-comfort.

Can I prolong her withdrawal by my actions? Dr. Harley says that withdrawal may last 6 months, sometimes longer. If the A has ended and I push her too hard do I risk prolonging her current state? I know I should not give away the farm, but should I let her stay rent-free for the next couple of months? I know, I need proof the A has ended. I'm just not sure what to do with the information once I have it.

Is there any reason to tell her parents and sisters? I'm unclear on where necessary exposure ends and unnecessary begins. How about my parents and our children? The children already know, and are in their later teens. They wear their happy faces around WW but tell me a different story. Should I inform them as to where WW and I are now and ask them to let her know how they really feel? I don't want to put them in the middle of this mess, but unfortunately they already are to a degree. She and my mom have a special relationship. I don't want to destroy that by some rash action if there's a chance for R.

Thanks again for your help. I need to be steered down the right track. Dr. Harley said it's narrow and that there's no other effective way he knows of.

You need to find out if there is contact. Nothing else is as important as that.

Don't try to educate her, because that annoys some WS's.

Also you need to be spending 15 hours a week doing fun things with your wife without the kids. Would she agree to that?

As far as telling family, you need to see if there is contact. If she is maintaining NC and only in withdrawal, then there is no need.

I checked our cellphone records. There have been 4 text messages and no telephone calls since 4/15.

We had a long talk this morning. I managed not to get preachy. She played the same record: I don't have any feelings for you, this has been building long before I met the OM I just didn't say anything, I'm not interested in doing anything with you, I'm sick of you always being there to help me, people can separate amicably... The same things others who have contributed to this forum have witten that WS's say. I just took the words she spoke with my newfound understanding of her fog-filled mind. She is continually bringing up the past and how we've changed so much. I asked her if there was anything in her profession from her past that was good, which she still applies today. She gave me an example. I then asked if there was anything bad in her profession from her past which she still applies today. She couldn't think of anything. I asked her if we could do the same thing between us (bring forward the good things from our past, leave behind the bad). She's stated several times that she doesn't regret marrying me. She said this again today. There was something in our past which she loved about me, and because of that chose to take a step with me that she never planned to take with another. (WW and I have a sterotypical medical marriage: I'm an M.D., she's an R.N. She hates stereotypes and went to nursing school vowing she'd never marry a doctor. The fact she changed her mind after meeting me has always been a source of satisfaction for me.) I asked if we could bring forward from our past the things that led to our falling in love and leave behind the bad things that have driven us apart. She didn't answer, which was odd. She usually has a quick comeback for anything I say that might lead to R between us. WRT separating amicably, I have an ace in my pocket which I played today. Her parents lived in a loveless marriage for 40 years or more. But over the past couple of years they've become very close. WW always said she couldn't understand why her mother would stay in a miserable relationship like the one she had with her father. I reminded WW of the relationship her parents have now, and how it wouldn't have happened had they decided to end it. (WW is certain her father had at least one A, based on hidden letters she'd found in the house.) I mentioned to her that we have the opportunity to take advantage of something 20 years before her parents: work to restore our love and enjoy a happy life together while we're still relatively young. At that point her chronic pain condition began to flare. I thanked her for spending the time to speak with me this morning and left the guestroom.

I just don't know. I'm 51 years old and have invested all of my emotional energy into my relationship with WW. I'm like Dr. Harley: I never allowed myself to get close to any woman other than WW. I just don't see that changing. But if it's going to change, am I willing to take a chance on spending a couple more years of a statistically few years left to have heartbreak at the end, and put up with even more heartbreak before the end? Should I just take the heartbreak now, work through it, and see what God has planned for me later in life, on the other side of this M? These are questions I'm asking myself. I know the answers: I just can't imaging leaving this M knowing I'd failed to do all I could do to save it. I'm not ready to change my name yet, I'm still standingfast. I pray I'm strong enough to live up to it.

Good job in checking on her and finding contact. That is the problem.

So now my advice is to expose the ongoing affair to everyone. Let her parents know and ask for their help in saving your marriage. Let your parents know also. Sit down with your kids and let them know that mom is continuing contact with her affair partner. They need to know about the threat to their family.

Also if you can afford it, I would invest in one call to the Harleys. Your wife probably won't talk to them. Most waywards refuse, but it will help you get a strong plan.

SF,

Most if not all BS can empathize with your feelings swinging wildly from one direction to the other. It is not fair that you are having to fight for your wife for this reason. Being a person of science, you most likely will try to find reasonable explantions for her actions in the past and in the present. Resist that temptation. It is impossible to apply logic to A's. The only reasonable explanation that I was able to use; selfishness. Even that is an oversimplification.

Everyone is correct. NC is mandatory before there is any chance to save your M. It is true that you might have requirements that she will consider a LB. These requirements will be necessary to save your M and to protect you from any additional emotional trauma.

I believe exposure is mandatory if there is still contact. If not, I think there is some flexibility. I think waywards come out of their fog quicker if they have to deal with the consequences of their actions. My FWW lied about her 2 year affair for an additional 10 years. I finally exposed to a select group of people primarily for the support. I was driving myself insane trying to keep it bottled up.

As a physician, you might enjoy a book I read. "Who Switched Off My Brain?" It explains the phisiological process that occurs when a thought occurs in the brain. I was amazed at the implications between a positive and negative thought. I followed that with a study on behavoir therapy model with mixed success.

I hope your personality likes adventure because the journey to recovery is not for wimps. In spite of occasionally feeling the save disrespect you are feeling right now, I am also feeling a love from my wife that I have not received in 20 years. It is a result of a change in thinking on both our parts.

Keep posting and continue to read other threads. There is a lot to learn.

Thanks, believer. How do I encourage her to end the contact? All of the messages were originated from OM. She did reply.

We posted at the same time - see my earlier post.

SF, I would present her with a plan to fall back in love again. Tell her you have been reading on Marriage Builders and this is what it will take:

1. affair proof your marriage by opening up your lives to each other. You should each be completely transparent, sharing passwords, etc. All time apart should be accounted for

2. create a romantic marriage using MB concepts. Start with the policy of Undivided Attention by scheduling 20+ hours a week together meeting these top needs: sexual fulfillment, affection, recreational companionship, and conversation. [this will have the greatest impact on your marriage]

From that point on, you would want to go through the basic concepts here.

And ask her to move back into your room. Living in the spare room is PREVENTING your marriage from recovering.

Thanks, RC! I really appreciate your voice of experience. To see there is a possiblity of R at the end of this rocky road makes it easier to face the journey.

Thank you, MelodyLane. For now, only one of those 4 is possible (conversation). She wants nothing to do with me sexually or even for displays of affection. I'm trying to bring in recreational companionship, but she's still telling me she doesn't want to go out and do anything with me. I've asked her several times to move back into our room, but she refuses. Refuses may not be the right word. She says she would hate it.

standfast, Steve Harley is Dr Harley's son and he is a marriage coach for Marriage Builders. [coach versus counselor - they do phone counseling] He is sometimes very good at SELLING a reluctant spouse on the idea of "just trying" to make their marriage work. He can often get them to just do the footwork, and before they know it, they are in love with their BS.

I have not used the phone coaching myself [my H and I went to the weekend] but others here have to great effect.

In that case, I would try the Steve Harley route. He is the best in the business. Let him work her over! And you don't even have to worry about getting her on the phone. Steve will tell you what to say to get her on the phone with him.

But I would let her know in NO uncertain terms that you are not going to stay in a loveless marriage. She needs to know you won't live like this, SF. If you allow the status quo to continue, your marriage is doomed. She may not "feel" like engaging right now, but her lack of action will doom your marriage and it is not fair of her to expect you to put up with that.

I have a feeling she is still in contact with her OM, though. That is where I would start. She might have a secret cell phone and/or using her computer to communicate.

Is she in contact with the OM??

I checked our cellphone records this morning. Since 4/15 there were 4 text messages and no phone calls.

Text messages from the OM? To the OM?

He contacted her, she replied. I couldn't find a message she initiated.

ugh.. The affair is very likely still on, SF. This is why she is not withdrawing. Every contact puts her back to day 1.