I am more than slightly peeved at your blanket invalidation of any and all feedback to someone who has harmed a father and aided and abetted a woman taking that man's children THOUSANDS of miles away from him.

I've watched for ten years on this board where betrayed fathers get the added shaft of losing access to their children while the Other Man gets to raise those kids and have more influence over those children than their father.

It breaks my heart.

And now you just gave aid and comfort to one of those Other Men.

A man who is unrepentant about this crime.

I'm heartsick this morning.

I don't give a rip about his affairage - he's apologized sincerely for that.

But he excuses his behavior toward the betrayed husband and that man's children.

I can't get past that.

The Obsessed Alienator

"I love my children. If the court can't protect them from their abusive father, I will. Even though he's never abused the children, I know it's a matter of time. The children are frightened of their father. If they don't want to see him, I'm not going to force them. They are old enough to make up their own minds."

The obsessed alienator is a parent, or sometimes a grandparent, with a cause: to align the children to his or her side and together, with the children, campaign to destroy their relationship with the targeted parent. For the campaign to work, the obsessed alienator enmeshes the children's personalities and beliefs into their own. This is a process that takes time but one that the children, especially the young, are completely helpless to see and combat. It usually begins well before the divorce is final. The obsessed parent is angry, bitter or feels betrayed by the other parent. The initial reasons for the bitterness may actually be justified. They could have been verbally and physical abused, raped, betrayed by an affair, or financially cheated. The problem occurs when the feelings won't heal but instead become more intense because of being forced to continue the relationship with a person they despise because of their common parenthood. Just having to see or talk to the other parent is a reminder of the past and triggers the hate. They are trapped with nowhere to go and heal.

The characteristics of obsessed alienators are:

*They are obsessed with destroying the children's relationship with the targeted parent.

*They having succeeded in enmeshing the children's personalities and beliefs about the other parent with their own.

*The children will parrot the obsessed alienator rather than express their own feelings from personal experience with the other parent.

*The targeted parent and often the children cannot tell you the reasons for their feelings. Their beliefs sometimes becoming delusional and irrational. No one, especially the court, can convince obsessed alienators that they are wrong. Anyone who tries is the enemy.

*They will often seek support from family members, quasi-political groups or friends that will share in their beliefs that they are victimized by the other parent and the system. The battle becomes "us against them." The obsessed alienator's supporters are often seen at the court hearings even though they haven't been subpoenaed.

*They have an unquenchable anger because they believe that they have been victimized by the targeted parent and whatever they do to protect the children is justified.

*They have a desire for the court to punish the other parent with court orders that would interfere or block the targeted parent from seeing the children. This confirms in the obsessed alienator's mind that he or she was right all the time.

*The court's authority does not intimidate them.

*The obsessed alienator believes in a higher cause, protecting the children at all cost.

*The obsessed alienator will probably not want to read what is on these pages because the content just makes them angrier.

There are no effective treatments for either the obsessed alienator or the children. The courts and mental health professionals are helpless. The only hope for these children is early identification of the symptoms and prevention. After the alienation is entrenched and the children become "true believers" in the parent's cause, the children are lost to the other parent for years to come. We realize this is a sad statement, but we have yet to find an effective intervention, by anyone, including the courts that can rehabilitate the alienating parent and child.

Provided by Douglas Darnell, Ph.D.

http://www.divorcesource.com/info/alienation/types.shtml

I am just gonna add my 2 cents, sorry....last night my heart was aching for these children.....at this point in time I truly hate my WH, I dont know if it will pass or not....but I tell my DS constantly how much I love and care for his dad and how much his dad love and cares for him....my DS is "on my side" because of what he has seen WH do to me and our family....and I am constantly reassuring DS how much his dad loves and cares for him and what a good person his dad is it is just that he is making "bad choices" right now....

I really do not feel like telling DS anything good about his dad right now....but my DS comes first and I know he loves his dad and I do not want to alienate DS from him...I do my best not to do that....WH on the otherhand, by his choices, may have alienated his son on his own, but DS will realize that on his own, when he is old enough.

Right now DS needs his dad...and WH is a great father (other then his leaving his family for OW). I just dont get how these people can do this to innocent children....it just breaks my heart...My DS comes first and I would never want him to feel that he has to take sides or feel any guilt that he loves and wants to spend time with his father.

Then we wonder why society is the way it is...I just do not get these peoples agenda at all. Our children are our future, what the hell is goin on?....

My brother was one of those betrayed husbands who got the shaft.

His WW took up with the local drug dealer and then took off with the two children after the divorce and moved out of state. She was an obsessed alienator too. Even though she was the one with the drug dealer.

That relationship broke up. But the depth and breadth of the alienation was apparent.

One time the children hadn't seen their father for several months, even though my brother had tried. He found out that the children were at their maternal grandparents in yet another state during my brother's court ordered visitation period. So he went to pick them up there after driving to the mother's state to get them and finding out they weren't there.

Her father came out waving a gun at my brother to get off his property - and my nephew came screaming out of the house yelling at his grandfather to not hurt his daddy.

Imagine! The harm done here to the child!

I'm certain that my xSIL painted my brother in the worst of lights, without shining the light on her own culpability.

Larry has no idea whether the betrayed husband was really a bad father before his wife divorced and moved to Texas to be with her internet OM WITH HIS CHILDREN! He only knows this man through the very colored lens of the wayward woman he took up with.

But I know this - while my brother responded with depression and inaction, he could have very easily gone the other way with rage.

What I want from Larry is a heart felt apology and an admission that he doesn't really know if the betrayed husband was bad or not - and that he probably did some very real harm to this man. Anything less of it colors every bit of advice Larry could give to a betrayed husband. Or a wayward wife on these boards.

I feel the exact same way KA...

I also pray for Larry's repentance - Repentance has been the greatest gift I've ever received. Without repenting, I wouldn't have received the full gifts of grace and mercy and the awe that those things inspire - I read every story here hoping and praying for repentance on the part of the wayward person - It is never lost on me that "There but for the grace of God go I"...

This board and the incredible people here that took their time to post to me HELPED me understand why I was so wrong - Without them, it's very likely that I would have continued blaming others for MY BEHAVIOR - Lord only knows where that would have left our family...

It's obvious that JL has Larry's ear - I pray that JL would do all that he could to help Larry understand what he has done wrong, instead of enabling him to continue in his foggy thinking - It is my understanding that JL is a Christian - I believe Larry has professed the same...JL, as Larry's Christian brother, I would urge you to use your influence and help him...I understand that you see Larry as the "attacked underdog" right now, but there is a REASON he is the "underdog" - his own actions have made him so - help him change...

Mrs. W

P.S. STILLHERE! Young lady I have been worried about you and missed you terribly! Don't disappear like that again without sayin' at least a little something!!!! Pretty please?

You are so sweet Mrs. W...I dont think I could ever stay away forever...just a little break I become a little obsessed sometimes and seeing all the newbies (it seems overwhelming lately, I cant even keep up) daily just hits me a little hard sometimes and I cant read for a while...but I care about a lot of people on here and would never stay away for too long...

I am okay though, nice to know I am missed a little too....thank you.

I never had a chance at a good set of parents, so it makes me extremely upset to see this happening.

If something happens to these kids, it will be solely on Larry's head.

Question: Would this REALLY put this thing to rest? Obviously, KA, I am directing this at you since you have clearly communicated what you WANT. (I understand that membership in this group goes beyond you.) I'm not saying that even if your request was met, you'd be placing Larry on your 'KA Christmas Card' list (or that he'd make anyone else's for that matter), but that we'd go back to providing the necessary support, insight, condolences, etc., to the new folks that are HURTING. And in NEED of valuable assistance.

Look, I bring this up because from my vantage point, I get the distinct feeling that some out there just want Larry to go away. For good. And to never return. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's NOT how it's coming across my monitor. Now, if that's how some folks truly feel, fine. That is THEIR prerogative, and I'm not here to mess with that. All I'm saying is if we're looking for total O&H from Larry, let's WALK THE SAME LINE. Let me put it a different way. I wonder who out there is hiding behind the auspices of PUBLICLY asking for an utterly penitent Larry -- on his knees begging for forgiveness, and promising to make amends to everyone harmed by his actions -- but PRIVATELY knowing DEEP DOWN that even if he acquiesced, they'd still be completely flummoxed by his continued presence. KA, I am NOT saying you fall into this category. I'm just sensing that may be the case with some.

I get the emotionally charged nature of the dialogue. A lot of nerves have been touched and I respect that fact. Sure, I know I haven't logged as many miles as a lot of other folks out there, but I also know that I have learned a thing or two in my day, I do have an opinion on the matter at hand, and I'm entitled to express it -- just like everyone else. I don't know who wins the longer this donnybrook festers, but I sure as heck know who loses:

This board.

TB

We're not O&H with Larry because he kept a BOMB hidden in his jacket.

Hmmmm.

Not saying that people aren't harboring hesitations based on what they think Larry might do, but what is the board's most common advice to a poster afraid to confront his/her spouse for whatever reason about whatever Lovebuster...from dirty socks on the floor all the way up to an affair?

"You're marriage will survive the anger. (in the case of the affair) it won't survive the affair."

The stock answer I get on 101 *every* time I post that I'm hesitant to bring something up to my husband because fear of an argument, his reaction, whatever...

is that is MY issue. I need to be O&H and let go the response.

So let's follow our own advice.

Fair enough, KR. I appreciate the O&H with me.

So, what do YOU want out of this? How would YOU like to see this resolved?


TB

I think Larry is smart and wise in a lot of things. If he gave what I asked, I know it would have to go further in his private life in how he considers his ongoing support of his XW in her battle with this betrayed father. I'd like to know that he is rethinking this support and is more cautious in his approach to another man's children.

I'd like to know he is working to sooth the relationship between that estranged father and the children who have been intentionally alienated by a wayward mother. I know that father did a lot of harm to his children - but I also understand why that may have happened.

The humility Larry would have to go through in order to do this from the heart would show in his posts - both about his own life situation, but it would add more depth to his feedback to others trying to live the marriage builder principles and live their own lives with more integrity.

I think if this happened, Larry would definitely make my marriage builder Christmas Card list.

The heart-and-soul changing experience Larry has to undergo is to face the fact that he might be wrong about a father in Kentucky!

KA, thank you for taking the time to spell it out like this. I understand your perspective and I appreciate your sincerity.


TB

I'd like to see Larry do as KA suggested--fix the broken relationship with the children's father.

A relationship he helped to break in a most terrible way.

How do I respond to this?? In truth I am not sure.

I have limited time today but I will come back tomorrow.

I will say that it may come as some surprise to the folks here that I absolutely no relationship with Larry. My interactions with him have been on this only and therefore can be looked up by anyone. I have assessed him solely on the advice he has given.

I have no knowledge that the woman Larry married had an affair on her H or if her H had on her. I know NOW that Larry and she stared dating a few weeks before the divorce was finalized, technically an affair.

I have no knowledge of the type of father the man that divorced Larry's W was. I do firmly believe that men get screwed in the court of law when it comes to divorce and the kids. That is something someone like Mr. W can address and take up, it is not my field.

I am not in the habit of condonning (sp) or judging peoples lives because frankly folks very few (not even many of my siblings) lead their lives like I would lead it for them.

I dislike it when other people try leading other peoples lives for them. I also have a very very strong boundary. If someone posts and I don't like their responses, I don't post to them. If I do post to someone and express my opinion of their situation and it is ignored or I don't care for the response, I stop posting.

If someone say a child molester posted here, if I knew who they were I would turn them in and I would never post to them. We all have that duty and that responsibility, but we don't have the "freedom" to keep beating on someone when we don't agree with their decisions. Further it is counter productive to the purposes of this site.

I am not and never was part of Larry's decision making. I did not get a chance to run his life and I don't feel the need to run it now. My limited point of few is does he give good advice to those that are postig here and needing some support? If he does, then people should listen to him, if he doesn't then it should be countered. I am not going to judge his life or run his life anymore than I am going to do that to anyone posting here.

I will say that the few MB folks I have met in real life seemed to be "good people" and I enjoyed meeting them and talking to them about many things very little of which had to do with MB. Oddly, I have even met a person who was very close to one of my best friends in college and in my life. Odd how that works.


Folks, my advice is like Larry, not like Larry, but assess the quality of his advice. A lot of alcoholics give good advice on this site, but doesn't mean we approve of what they did/do/ or will do with regard to alcohol. Alcoholics recover just like everyone else can.

JL

Wasn't he involved with her online for months before they started dating? I think I read his own words that he fell for her during that time. Why not ask him JL?

I was taken aback by your post as well. I guess I had you figured for a different kind of man.

I'm surprised at you, JL...when someone is morally bankrupt in one part of their lives, isn't it prudent to try and discern where ELSE they may be morally bankrupt?

So if an unrepentant child molester was posting advice on this site, you would take their "advice" as just as credible as anyone else's? Really?

Wouldn't the action of molesting a child directly indicate moral bankruptcy and therefore...if someone is morally bankrupt in one area of their lives, the chances of them being so in other areas is fairly high?

Cognitive dissonance maybe?

I agree with this. And there are others here, FWS', who also give great advice. But would my advice be very good if I was not repentant?

Lets say I came on here and told you all that my drinking was all my H's fault and made all manner of rationalizations and lashed out at those who questioned my perspective? What if I got defensive and angry whenever anyone made a truthful negative statement about an alcoholic?

A person who gets angry when such statements are made reflects a person who IS NOT HONEST about his crime. If he were honest, he would just AGREE with the negative statements. He sure wouldn't demonize those who said the truth.

It used to make me furious when anyone said anything negative about drunks. And then one day it ocurred to me that everything they said was true! It was true to say that drunks are liars, con-men, irrepsonsible, selfish, BAD people. That was me! I was a scumbag!

But until I really faced the truth about this, I was not truly repentant. I had to admit the truth to myself first.

So, if I am not repentant, folks should rightfully question me and scrutinize my words, because my lack of repentance means I am STILL BLIND. And the blind cannot lead the blind.


I think that is Kayla's point. If I were behaving similarly I would hope my friends would point it out too.