Thanks faithy and great idea to post the abbreviations!!

Nope, sorry SoCal...this isn't quite right and until you understand this, your BW is going to be dragging around a boatload of hurt because it feels like your affairs are being blamed on HER not meeting your ENs. This is not true, see below.

Here is a formula I came up with a while ago in relation to boundaries, EPs and ENs.

Weak Boundaries + Unmet ENs = Affair (or can)
Weak Boundaries + Met ENs = Affair (or can)
Strong Boundaries + Unmet ENs does NOT = Affair
Strong Boundaries + Met ENs does NOT = Affair

The common denominator in having an A is the WEAK BOUNDARIES, not unmet ENs.

The common denominator in NOT having an A is STRONG BOUNDARIES, not met ENs.

You see SoCal...if unmet ENs were the problem, both your BW and I would have had affairs as well because our ENs weren't being met either...so that is not the deciding factor in choosing to have muliple affairs/ONSs.

The common denominator is weak boundaries.

We show up on MB fumbling the ball a bit, so relax a little, and put away the defensiveness.

Back to my questions you've NOT answered..

*What MB books have you read and which ones?
*How many days... EXACTLY has it been since your last contact with this OW??
*Is this your first Affair???

Weak boundaries -yours - are at the root of why your wife is so upset. After all, you sure weren't meeting her needs if you having an A while she was pregnant. She wasn't getting hers met but she didn't go out and have an affair and focus on herself, did she?

That is why I am trying to ask you to work on her ENs and not expect yours to be met right now. People don't have affairs because they weren't getting their needs met at home - in fact, if those who had affairs had been working doggedly to meet their spouse's ENs I betcha they would have had theirs met as well and never had the affair.

You are listening, you are trying, you are answering. Good for you! Keep it up and you will see things in your house change - probably not as quickly as you wish but I guess you will learn some patience along with all the new skills!!

WELL PUT MF! Your H is so fortunate you were willing to recover with your H instead of kicking him to the curb forever.
Just as fortunate as I am with My wife!

No, I get it. I appreciate your guys input. We're talking through these posts as they come through.

Great that you are talking through the posts!! Keep it up!

SoCal,

this bothers me terribly;


This is VERRY foggy thinking! As long as you feel it's easier to walk, then you will keep this option in the back of your mind.
You will also tend to use it as a tool to somehow make your wife think, WOW, you're taking the tough road of recovery so she needs to back off.....

Do you see this?

SoCal - your attitude needs to be "I will do whatever it takes for as long as it takes for my wife to heal"

No parachute clauses.

Anything less and we will hand you your [censored] on a silver platter. Your words are very revealing of your attitude even though you think you have been brief. We honestly read you like a book.

Sometimes...I've notice with waywards...they hold on to the joe daddy coolness that permeated them while sowing some oats. Remember...waywards act and think like teenagers. He's just come off the high of infidelity and capturing his youth. He's devastated on the outside but, in my experience, the teenage "know-it-all" coolness takes time to dissapate.

Such statements CAN BE be an subliminal indication that the Betrayed Spouse should feel a little LUCKY they are even willing to stick around, after all...they could more easily just leave.

BTW...MF, "faster" shouldn't be the goal...I'd shoot for thorough lest something gets glossed over.

Mr. W

p.s. - 12...we are pulling for you. A good marriage is no longer an acceptable option. It's gonna HAVE TO BE great eventually. The ONLY WAY to get there is a couple years of dedication, attention and then life-long practice. Right now you are the worst player on a last place marriage. The good news is you CAN EVENTUALLY become the best player on a first place marital team. You CAN EVENTUALLY become a GREAT HUSBAND. Your marriage CAN become GREAT. What you've done IS repairable.

SoCal,

You need to answer tst's questions. We need a full picture to be able to help.

SoCal ~ tst has been very helpful to my H....they have corresponded off boards and tst was VERY helpful...he's BEEN in your position so please understand this!

Tonight is our "date" night and we never miss our UA time...so I won't be around much after this but I will be back....please keep posting and most importantly LISTENING...we WANT your marriage to not merely survive but be better than ever...it can happen, we are proof!

Remember...if WE are hearing foggy comments through a message board and it's painful for US to hear, your BW is truly reeling from it...we are here to help you and you will get the help you need but it would be much more smooth if you dropped the anger and defensiveness.

<running and ducking now while you throw some choice words at the computer screen, LOL!>

ITA. And then we can begin giving you clear, concrete things to do and say that will greatly help your recovery!

Hello SoCal and welcome to MB. There is no better place for you to receive the support you need. Remember, support isn't about helping you stay where you are; it's about helping you get to where you need to be.

I have bumped a thread for you. It's Pep's Notable Posts by Pepperband. Pep created a thread and has copied and pasted some great posts there so they don't get lost in the sea of threads. Please take some time to read that thread. There is so much wisdom from people who have walked the same path as you and from people who have walked in your wive's shoes as well. You will learn a great deal just from that one thread.

I'm going to copy and paste a few posts from there that I want to be sure you read.

SoCal,

It's very late where I am so I am going to bed. I'm going to make a comment, but I won't be around for a while if you respond to it.

Your thread title talks of spinning without traction. I should just like to point out that, in your posts, I hear resistance to doing "whatever it takes", and a lack of remorse and resentment about your BW's reaction to her devastation. Your words say that you understand that recovery will be hard and take time, but your tone says that you want your wife to stop showing her sorrow all the time because it makes you feel unhappy. I think that this attitude shows that you are the one spinning wheels, and that the lack of traction is due to your resentment at your wife's grief.

That resentment is stopping you from helping her. Your annoyance at being pushed to post here is one example of that. There should be no hesitation from you in helping her in whatever way she asks. If there is resentment and unwillingness over other things that she has asked from you, it needs to be dropped immediately. You are making recovery harder with that attitude; harder for yourself, as well as for her, since personal and marital recovery are the goals.

There is a video of Dr Harley talking about the effects of affairs. I don't have a link for it now, but I hope someone will post it to you.

Here's one from the Notable Posts. The BS's username here was Crushed and this post is from 2000.

This apology letter was written by her FWH, who truly "got" the depths of devastation he had brought upon his bride.




I just wanted to share this and see what you all thought....here goes.
I'm sorry is so easy to write, hard to say, and incredibly painful to feel. Compared to feeling truly sorry, writing it and saying it looks & feels so inadequate.

If I had never said I was sorry, and if I do not act as though I'm sorry in everyday life and especially how I treat you, writing this letter would mean nothing. In fact, under tose conditions, a mere letter would infuriate you.

In light of all this, I am more than confident of the sorrow I feel, that it shows and I have to continue to tell you I am sorry. So hopefully this letter only reinforces what is continually being expressed. My ultimate goal is to make you know that I am sorry (although I could never fully show you), by the way I live.

I'm sorry for so many things...I'm sorry for letting you down. You beleived in m e, I'm sorry for ruining your belief. For taking things that you were sure of , that I made you sure of, and turning them upside down.

I'm sorry for killing your good friend. The guy you confided in. The man you could go and talk to about something that upset you. The one you would call on when no one else would do. The one youshared yourself with. The one you were a freind to. The one you talked to for hours and hours when you were single, the one you belived enough in to walk down that aisle. "I'm sorry" doesn;t come close to how I feel for changing "I do" to "I didn't". i'll be shedding tears in my grave that only God will see.

I know this because my sorrow has buried me six feet in a casket made of regret, in a box where light and air is no more. A prisioner of the past. And everyday I am there now, And God sees the tears. And everytime I take a peak out above the ground, I see a tombstone with your name on it. And the only thing worse than being where I am is knowing where you are and knowing that I put you there.

I am sorry that I separted you from your friend, the one who loved you, was commited and dedicated to you. The one you were commited to and dedicated to. The one you stayed faithful to.

I'm sorry the person who cared for me, the person I love, I hurt more than anyone I've ever hurt in the world. I'm sorry for every time during the day and night you think about what I've done. I'm sorry for every tear you shed because your husband cheated on you, had sexual relations with other people. I'm sorry that I decieved you, lied to you, misled you, I'm sorry I was a hypocrite, acting like I was faithful and doing the right things, the honorable things, when I wasn't.

I'm so sorry that I took a person out of your heart, who you were so proud of, so appreciative of the way you thought he handled your illness. I'm sorry I crushed all the good feelings you had. I hate the fact I crushed all the warm feelings you enjoyed, the good and conforting thoughts you had.

I"m sorry I replaced the one you trusted with someone you no longer want to trust. I'm sorry I blindsided you with awful and shocking news that the person you thought would always uphold you in the tough times, kicked you when you were down. No matter what I now say and do, you know I let you down in the worst possible way. I'm sorry that there are no words to soothe your pain, no magic wand to change the past.

I'm sorry for the humiliation I've caused you. I'm sorry that you ever have any thoughts at all that you are inadequate. I hate that. I know they are very painful thoughts for you to have. I'm sorry that your friend treated you like an eenemy.

I'm sorry for every second I pursued another women. I'm sorry for every second I flirted. I'm sorry for every second I was with them. I'm sorry for every second I touched them. I'm sorry for every second I plotted to be with them. I'm sorry for every second I allowed myself to be even around them, I'm sorry I ever met them. I'm sorry that I ever looked at them or spoke to them. I'm sorry I ever gave any hint or suggestion that I was interested in anyone or anything other than you. I'm sorry that you live with the knowledge that I did every one of these things. I'm sorry I violated the trust you had in me regarding these things.

I'm sorry I took my body and mind and put myself in a sexual sewer. I'm sorry that I had inappropriate and destructive realationships with other people who were somebody's daughter, mom, finance, wife,friend,sister,aunt,neighbor,cousin.

I'm sorry that I allowed other women to have inappropriate and destructive relationships with your husband, our kids dad, my parents son, my brothers and sisters brother, my aunt's nephew, my neices uncle, our neighbor's neighbor,( he names them by name) a hockey and baseball team's coach, a whole bunch of young people's former youth pastor and a churchful of people's former assistant pastor, your parent's son-in-law your brothers brother-in-law , with someone who was many peoples friend, christian brother and neighbor.

I'm sorry you had to see a moron, a loser, an idiot throw away his life, break all his dreams, ruin his wifes life and break all her dreams, disgrace his family, disgrace his wife, disgrace his kids.

I'm sorry I destroyed the fact we were faithful to one another, destroyed the specialness you felt making love to your husband. I hate all those things so much. I'm sorry that you have to feel pain for all these things when you know it's not fair. I'm sorry for all the injustice you've incurred.

I'm sorry that I dug a hole and put you in it and took away your light and air. I'm sorry that I at least temporiraly ruined our lives, your life. I'm sorry that I let our daughter down so bad. I'm sorry for all the ways this has affected her. I'm sorry she has a dad who is such a terrible, awful, rotten man. I'm sorry that I'm not the dad she deserves and never could be. I'm sorry she thought she had a great dad, that her mommy had a great husband. I'm sorry I can no longer tell her to marry a man like her dad. I can never say those words to her again, ever. I'm sorry that when I dance with her to Daddy's little girl, there will be rears of eternal regret falling from her father's eyes down onto her beautiful hair. I'm sorry that's just the way it is and there is nothing I can do to change it.

I'm sorry that you will never feel pride about me again. I'm sorry for the doubt you feel in everything I say or do. I'm sorry you dont feel confident or secure in a future. I'm sorry your not enjoying the simple pleasures you normally would, spending time enjoying thing you normally would.

I'm sorry you dont look forward to being with your husband. I'm sorry you dont miss him when he isn't home. I'm sorry you dont love him. I'm sorry you don't feel good about him, that your not happy being seen with him. I'm sorry you think you never knew him.

I'm sorry for every moment I was angry or cross with you when I was mad and disgusted at myself. I'm sorry fir every moment I didn't repent and turn from my wicked ways. I'm sorry I didn't repent after the first time, the second, etc.

Many days I'm sorry I was ever born, because today you would be happier, better off with someone treating you right, taking better care of you, with someone who stuck by you when you were sick, with someone who could give you the things you want, the affection you deserve.

I'm sorry for everyday of our lives that I wasn't a better man, that I didn't treat you right, didn't talk to you right, didn't uphold you, support you, lift you up, give you hope, make you know how special you are, every day I didn't somehow inspire you by my deeds to be a better person yourself. I'm sorry for every tim e I've ever hurt you. I'm sorry for not saying the right thing, thinking of you in little ways that would make you happy. I'm sorry for every moment you don't enjoy life because of the misery I've caused. I'm sorry, so sorry, for every moment you've had to feel, hurt, lonely, abandoned, crushed, defeted, lost, helpless, hopless, disgusted, discounted, forgotten, spit on, punched, kicked, laughed at, put down, beat up, broken, cheap, neglected, run over, spun around, disoriented, left out, depressed, sad, tearful, angry, bitter...etc.

I'm sorry I borke my vows to you. I'm sorry I didn't do what I promised. I'm sorry I wasn't man enough, wasn't good enough, didn't have character enough, strength enough, courage enough, belief enough, perserverence enough to do the things I said I would. I'm sorry I've failed at being a husband, a father, a man, a human being.

I'm sorry I broke God's heart. I'm sorry I hurt people He loves. I'm sorry that I became the man the prophet described to David, who hurt innocent people. I'm sorry I had to hear God say "Thou art the man".

I'm sorry I put so much sin between God and myself, between you and myself. I'm sorry I broke the two most important bonds I ever had. I'm sorry that, as a temple of the Holy Spirit, I defilied God's temple, because wherever I go whatever sin I do, God's presence is also brought to that place. I defiled His Word, His Law, I took all that was good and did evil. I'm sorry I showed contempt for the both of you. I'm sorry I brought Him shame.

I'm sorry I sinned against you and Him, I'm sorry I didn't repent immediately and completely, I'm sorry that when I finally told you, I didn't say everything, I'm sorry I withheld some things. I'm sorry I put you through the whole process.

I'm sorry when I wake up, when I work, when I play, when I eat, when I fast, when I pray, when I laugh, when I cry, when I'm alone, when I'm with you, when I talk, when I am silent. I'm sorry when I run, when I walk, rest, think, meditate, listen, understand, when I don't understand, when I hope, when I fear, when I'm in despair, when I'm uplifted, I am sorry when you do all these things, when you anthing, when you do nothing, I am sorry.

I am sorry right now. I will be sorry tommorow and eferyday and night after tommorrow, through sunshine, rain, every season, every year, every moment, every breath, I will always be sorry until God Himslef wipes away every tear. I am sorry that if I run over a mountain, or wim an ocean, I can't change what I've done and what it's done to you.

I'm sorry enough to give you my dollar , my only dollar everyday, knowing I don't have a million days. (end of letter)

The last sentence is refering to our counseler giving the analogy of him owing me a million dollars and he can only pay me one dollar a day. Wow, quite a letter huh?

What an amazing letter. I really love the last line and the explaination!

BTW SoCal, SexyMamaBear is my wife..... She is the most amazing woman in the world!

SoCal,

There is a huge difference between guilt and remorse. From your posts, I don't believe that you have gotten to remorse yet. The following article from another website explains those differences better than i have ever heard them explained.




Real remorse means seeing the pain you caused someone, and reaching out to make it better. Feeling bad for the person in pain.
A person who feels guilt rather than remorse sees the pain of others (that they inflicted) as judgment, condemnation, and feels bad for themselves. What they feel for the person in pain is anger - anger for showing them what they don't want to see (the consequences of their actions).
Someone who feels remorse for doing a bad thing will always consider the thing they did to be bad.
Bad feelings associated with guilt are situational, and change with circumstances.
Someone really remorseful doesn't want to repeat a harmful action - they aren't even tempted to. Real remorse means never doing it again, self accountability.
Someone who feels guilty can still repeat the actions causing the guilt, precisely to escape the guilt. The only way to end feelings of guilt is self accountability - guilt happens when someone runs from it.
Remorse says "I'm sorry I hurt you".
Guilt says "stop making me feel bad for what I did".
Remorse cares more about the one wounded. They don't care about others holding them accountable because they already hold themselves accountable.
Guilt worries more about how the wounded one makes them appear in the eyes of others. They feel their self image is being attacked. They do worry about others holding them accountable because they shirk self accountability.
Remorse means learning from one's harmful actions.
Guilt means not even facing what one has done, so learning from it isn't likely.
Remorse means leaving the harmful actions one did in the past, but not forgetting them.
Guilt carries harmful actions around, keeping them ever present, by attempting to avoid dealing with them. They will always be ever present, a thorn in ones side, looming large and affecting one's life until faced and dealt with. This is self inflicted torture - although a person struggling with guilt will blame others.
Remorse leads to the ability to forgive the self.
Guilt leads to self hatred.
Remorse is action, actively doing something about the harm one caused.
Guilt is feeling self pity and doing nothing about the harm one caused.


Which do you think you are experiencing, SoCal?

God's Blessings,

Say

Here's another one from Notable Posts. It was one I wrote about Why People Cheat.


The reason is very simple and is the same no matter who the WS is.

You did not have boundaries in place to protect your marriage from intruders. Or you moved your boundaries because the attention you were getting from OM felt good and you didn't want it to stop.

It really is THAT simple.

Boundaries are what keep us where we belong. Once they are removed, we tread in dangerous waters, often drown, and drown those who love us.

There isn't some deep, dark childhood issue or personality disorder that caused you to have an affair.

Affairs happen because one spouse becomes selfish and self-centered enough to want what feels good at the moment MORE THAN they want to protect their spouse from pain.

You see, SoCal, lack of having ENs met is NOT why people have affairs. It may make someone feel vulnerable to an outsider; but if they are committed to protecting their marriage, no affair could ever possibly occur.

It's all about boundaries...extraordinary precautions.

Your affair had nothing to do with whether your wife met your ENs or not. It was all about your lack of protecting the most treasured possession you've been blessed with....your marriage and family.