Hi,
I am new here and have some questions. I am reading and reading MB and trying to apply it to my M. We have been married 8 years, and are in our 40's. My H had an A, I found out last July, we have been in MC and he is in IC. He and the OW lost their jobs over it, so there are financial issues now too. It's been hell, of course.

We are making two steps forward, then one back, progress. It's progress.

I feel that his IC is hindering our M though. He had a LOT of childhood trauma. Could be a movie of the week. He hasn't dealt with it. Now he is, and he is giving the IC permission to talk to our MC. The IC doesn't have our M as a goal at al. She is interested in him becoming healthy only, and if the M is still there, great.

While is he listening to the MC also, I feel that the IC is not a friend of our marriage.

Thoughts?

An IC usually is not a friend of marriage. And more often than not, neither are marriage counselors. An IC will help your H pursue his feelings de jour, at the expense of the marriage. It is just a DISTRACTION from the real problem, which is the marriage. Dr Harley says that when a counselor gets off into childhood issues, you may be there for years, diverted from solving present day problems. He believes it is a way to keep people coming back for years, paying for your services, but never helping the person.

Dr Harley is a credentialed, licensed psychologist, who has saved thousands of marriages, and this is what he says:


here

here

here

p.s one does not have to go into their childhood to solve problems of the present. That is ridiculous. That is just a DISTRACTION and DIVERSION from changing current behavior.

Melody - thank you! I think so too! The IC is convinced that she will help him heal and then he will be good for the M. She said to him "you aren't good for anybody right now, including yourself." While this is true, dredging all this stuff up for the past 6 months hasn't really helped him or us.

They don't even focus on the A. They do focus on his trauma and PTSD, the consequences of his A decisions - job loss, loss of reputation, loss of friends, almost lost marriage, legal impacts, etc. She does hold him accountable for his A and the bad decisions he made.

But it seems to stop us from moving forward as well as we could. The MC is helping. She uses MB principles and she specializes in infidelity. She is helping him learn to help me heal, but also helping us both to develop a better M.

This is not how people get better and change their lives. This is just a needless distraction.

So do I ask him to quit IC? Or perhaps talk about it with our MC?

His mother is here visiting and she agrees. She wants to go to IC with him on Monday and he has agreed.

If it were me, I would print up the Dr Harley quotes and hand them to him. Explain to him that IC is cute and trendy, but it is a distraction from the real problem. It is a complete waste of time. He does not have to resolve childhood trauma to solve adult problems. And if he is busy focusing on the past, he won't be focusing on ways to make the present GREAT.

Another good resource that addresses this little "counseling" fad is One Nation Under Therapy by Christina Hoff Sommers and Sally Patel, M.D. This book reviews numerous studies that show that counseling can sometimes be harmful and distracting. I know it was for me personally. I felt cute and trendy but it did nothing to solve my current problems.

On the other hand, my life changed dramatically in Alcoholics Anonymous, which is a BEHAVIOR BASED program much like Marriage Builders. And they didn't want to hear my CRAP when I went to AA. They told me I needed to shut and listen, since the only thing I knew how to do was screw up my life. Shutting up and listening was the best thing I ever did!

That is such good advice. You know, he has been saying that he "needs a plan", "has no direction" and the IC keeps focusing on the trama and having him read books about self-esteem and abandonment. He has remarked that they are good, but they need to have endings that direct readers on what to DO rather than just focus on feelings only!

We have a friend who is a recovered alcoholic - 18 years - and she says that she is so glad she is one because of AA. She knows what she is, she can go somewhere where they tell you what to do and you need to do it!

Maybe he should find a 12 step program to join!

Marriage Builders IS that plan for struggling marriages. It is a very detailed plan that is based on behavioral changes. I would follow the program outlined in Surviving an Affair and Lovebusters and ditch the IC! Good luck!

I will chime in with one kind of IC that *does* IMHO tend to help, if applied correctly. It's called Cognitive Behavioral Therapy or CBT. The "bible" of this kind of therapy is The Feeling Good Handbook by Dr. David Burns. But as ML has said, I think the reason it works is because while it acknowledges past issues as real, it doesn't focus on them. It focuses on changing current thought processes and behaviours.

If your H's therapist isn't doing CBT work with him, I agree it'll just be more of the same on and on. IMHO, CBT can and does work well with MB. You might see if he's willing to switch to a CBT IC for his personal issues. They deal with PTSD and anxiety issues very well.

The bottom line is he doesn't need individual counseling to resolve marriage problems, he needs a good marriage program and a qualified marriage counselor. Focusing on ones childhood to fix a MARRIAGE is a distraction and a diversion. Very trendy and cute, but basically worthless.

Speaking as someone who had an A and - as a bipolar - has some experience with IC, I agree with both Mel and AC. The best kind of IC is CBT. My first IC wanted to spend time tracing back my earliest feelings of rejection back to kindergarten while my M lay bleeding in the wake of my A. Useless. And let me tell ya, my childhood wasn't perfect.

I would talk to your H about these very valid concerns. If you two call the Harley's they will be able to give you even better guidance about IC's. As far as his IC wanting to help him work through depression all the consequences caused, those are normal. I cheated, and there were consequences both for me and for the innocent family I hurt. The key to REAL self esteem is to face the ugly honestly, make amends, and become once again a H who can love and care for his family.

I am so sorry that you are going through this. My last suggestion would be to try to find him a male IC. My most recent encounter with a counselor who was a man was an exercise in discomfort - he basically hit on me.

Your H needs good counsel on finding the right IC. This is something you can help him to see, esp if his mother agrees.

He is doing CBT with the IC. They are focused on overcoming the trauma. But to me, after 6 months, I question whether or not he is making progress or having a plan to follow.

She says he is making progress and he feels he is, too.

I will dissent to a degree. Only in that YOUR most important issue is your MARRIAGE, whereas he lives within himself 24/7 and you have no real idea what he thinks about nor what he feels in any given day or time.

While I absolutely agree that for MARRIAGE COUNSELING, dredging up the past is of little use. The real issue for HIM is that he might have some crap running around in his brain which has stopped him from relating to the world in general in a productive way. And while I agree that Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is the best way to deal with it, simply ignoring that HE has issues in order to get your MARRIAGE back where you want it is self-centered.

You might see the marriage as the biggest issue... He might see his LIFE as the biggest issue.

I absolutely agree that MB principles make the most sense. But don't get caught on what YOU perceive as the thing you want solved most as being the only thing of consequence. I absolutely agree that there are a TON of crap counselors out there who don't really understand how to improve a person's life in a realistic way. I absolutely believe that there is alot of crap psychology/psychologists out there as well. He might need something different, all I am saying is don't discount what HE needs for himself in an effort to gain from him what is most important to you.

D&S, please get that book I recommended above. I also had a very traumatic childhood and this book explained why my counseling kept me crippled. It did not resolve any problems, rather it kept me triggered and angry and focused on the PAST.

And as long as that was the case, I was not focused on solutions for the PRESENT. [marriage problems AND living problems] Dr Harley does NOT say this in conjunction to only solving marriage problems, either. He does not believe one needs to IC to examine their childhood to change current behavior.

The truth is that we do not have to explore our childhood to change CURRENT behavior. We simply need to focus on the PRESENT.

What problems is your H seeing this counselor FOR?

here

I know that certain things about my life and how I was raised affected my behavior. But all I really needed to do about that was identify it, learn how to let go of it, and change patterns. I think the idea of dissecting every painful event and thought we have ever had is NOT healing; it's just navel gazing and keeps us stuck. I am a thinker, so I could sit in this chair and analyze why I think, what I think, how I think it, and how it all makes me think I feel for the rest of my life -- literally. This does not give me depth or heal my psyche, it just means I atrophy and the dishes don't get done.

Bottom line for me, the deep thinking bipolar who is adopted and suffered sexual abuse, ACTION is the key. I can visualize forgiving my abuser all day long. If my present life and marriage are crappy, none of that matters.

I am not opinionated at all am I? Maybe I should ponder that for awhile.....:)

I am ordering the book today, thanks Melody!

He is seeing the IC because he realized the A was all his fault and he wanted to "fix what is wrong." He is an unhappy, angry person who how felt entitled. He doesn't have a good moral compass. He doesn't take responsibility for his actions, and doesn't know how. He has trouble making friends. He is very self-centered and selfish.

In his attempts to be O and H, he gave written permission for the IC and our MC to talk and share information. I also went to IC with him once, to meet her and ask any questions I wanted. The IC and MC said he is very wounded, doesn't know how to be empathetic and is learning, and is making progress towards taking responsibility and being less self-centered.

The IC flat out said that our M and the A are not her concern. Her concern is getting my H healthy. The behaviors he had which damanged the M and let to do the A are her concern.

This is all so confusing. Thank you all for helping me make sense of it.

Bingo! The same here. All I had to do was CHANGE my behavior. I didnt' need to know why I was that way to change it. In fact, trying to figure out why was a waste of time and a distraction. I will probably NEVER know why. Who cares?

I spent years flapping my gums in a counselor's chair and never got anywhere, except angry, depressed and bitter. I caused more holes in the ozone than all the Aquanet being sprayed in the state of Texas. That really made my life better, NOT!! So, I went into AA and they told me they didn't want to hear my crap, that I should shut up and listen to THEM.

Once I focused on changing current behavior, my life started changing in a dramatic and effective way. I discovered a very simple truth that separates the successful programs from the duds: FEELINGS FOLLOW ACTIONS. The successful programs are action oriented, bring the body and the mind will follow.

A waste of time. Dr Harley will tell him why he had the affair FOR FREE and he is a clinical psychologist and the founder of Marriage Builders:

here

There ya go! Now he knows why he had the affair!