It is the obvious struggle and the complete incongruency which makes it so difficult for me to simply let go. When you see someone hurting so much and pretending that they aren't causing their own pain, it really makes it difficult to just step back, love, and leave alone. Seeing it occurring when the two daughters you love are also involved and being hurt just compounds it 10 fold.

Today was the most 'normal' day I have had in a long time. I think talking to my preacher yesterday helped begin healing alot of holes I was feeling in my heart.

That's great! I think you will find that those 'normal' days come around more often as time goes on.

God is good and He has a great plan for your life...just keep asking Him to point you in the right direction to get there (and to guard your heart while you're on your way).

Heh... I think that MY problem is that HIS view appears to be different from MY view. I wish that I could come to grips with that. But beyond everything else, there is no doubt that, as with most here, our Expectations of how things were going to be in our lives certainly differs from what is ACTUALLY going on in our lives. I think that I feel a pressure, at my age (41) to 'get moving'. I married believing that we were on the relatively same page in our desires, and was significantly mistaken. And it breaks my heart. However, NOW, I fear that I won't be able to trust God enough to listen. I fear the FEAR, somewhat, of being alone, but the biggest fear is that I will NOT have someone to share all the things I want to give. Sad but true, it just kills me that my biggest regret at this moment, is the loss of someone to receive what I wish to give. Once again, I believe it is because GIVING has been what I have gained most from over the past several years. Receiving EN support was so limited, that my day to day 'good feelings' came from an almost single sided feeling of 'good from giving'. I never regretted the giving, nor was I jealous. That is how I am by nature.

And it scares me... it scares me that I might merely be 'taken' by someone who is primarily a 'taker' because I am willing to 'give'. I fear that part of me, and even though I understand the issue, putting it into practice worries me. I KNEW what I wanted before I married, and yet I fell in love with someone who met very few of those things. I didn't date several women again because they 'didn't have' what I was looking for, and yet I completely buried my head when I met my wife, because she had a couple of the IMPORTANT things... ie 2 little girls who I love dearly. Man it still kills me to think about them, and all I wanted to be for them.

Well... not that I am ready to date... that is for sure. But I have thought about what I did and what I did wrong, and COULD I ever believe another woman who said she loved ME? It is enough to buy a 2 BR house and never tell her what I did until I really believed she loved me and not my 'potential'. That... or marry someone well off enough that there would be NO Question that she didn't need me for my fianancial security. Hmmm.... that might do it...

You know it is sad to question the utility of 'being yourself' when your basic 'self' is a giver...

I have thought alot about this today. And how would a person trust in this regard. I was unfortunately 'fully willing' to give, because I am capable and enjoy it. However, that did not mean that I didn't need to receive as well. How in the WORLD can you trust what you are seeing when you make a great ($) with a target on it? I have already seen a change in how people are treating me... and it makes me want to run and hide.

How do you trust? You make sure your own taker is present, along with your giver...you yank Taker forward and introduce him to the next woman you want to marry.

Which may be how you got to your last sentence.



And being an unconditional receiver is really tough...you know how good giving feels...watching your balance and making sure you receive allows your spouse to feel that great, too.

Don't go into a future that isn't here yet. Practice, though.



LA

I agree... I think that I work and have worked on the basis of most of what I GOT out of a relationship was the 'good feelings' I got out of 'giving' in a relationship. I tried to introduce my taker, I really did, however, my wife was so aggressive that anytime or anything I did something of a 'taking' sort she would squash it with fury.

I talked with my IC last night, and we discussed more of what had happened. I hadn't had the chance or remembered, or thought about or repressed alot of things which I have been remembering lately. He was surprised about some of the things she did. Like buy me a shirt, then when she was mad at me, take it back. Remove all of our daughters pictures from my office when she was mad. Take all the refrigerator magnets when she was mad (stupid but true, then to my face when questioned say "I didn't do it... I thought YOU did." WOW!!!) Give me a coat then take it back when she was mad... lots of little passive/overtly aggressive Borderline crap that I think, in order to 'maintain' my marriage and try to preserve my family at all costs, I compartmentalized and didn't allow myself to consciously 'link'. I think that I even KNEW that if I thought about everything all at once, or even a few things all at once, I couldn't continue the marriage. So I just kept putting things in little boxes in order to come home after work and get up next to her the following day.

After talking with my preacher and IC this week, it feels like a thousand pounds have been removed from my shoulders. I have always KNOWN what all that crap meant, but I never thought I had the 'right/responsibility to myself' to say "Enough is enough". I just tried to preserve my family and wanted to be there not only for our girls... but for her as well, when she came out of this Borderline fog. I just couldn't realize that it wasn't fog to her, it was a true reality. And it just breaks my heart. But I am feeling SO much better without that day to day responsibility to try to 'fix' her in light of all the craziness which was ensueing all around.

Taker... I don't even know if I have one. I want one... I would like to miss something I was GETTING in my marriage instead of only things I was giving. Wow... having someone actually WANT to give... and me being able to accept it as right... that is a novel concept in and of itself.

Balance isn't easy...and I think I struggled with balancing my Giver and Taker because I told myself a lot of lies...

small lies...

deceptive, nonetheless.

You have a Taker. You know you do. If you didn't, you wouldn't be divorcing your WW.

You experience your Taker, it seems to me, when you hit the "that's enough" point. Problem can be, you've moved that point up and down, back and forth, over the course of your life. No wonder you don't know if you have a Taker.

"Enough is Enough" is past the point of healthy Taker stepping forward. It's your Giver demanding others change because of your actions...that they respond in the way you want them to...which is the evil side of the Giver.

I learned that pleasing can be abusive. Honestly. When I would give without trying for a certain outcome, like you, I would love the resulting feeling. And I'd kick at my Taker to keep getting that feeling...

and not realize that I went from giving free of response, to giving to get...and it's a gnarly road, sir. It's tricky and it slides a lot. Because pleasing comes from fear...unless you act from love definitively.

Giver Lies: That you can fix your spouse. Solve her problems. Change her mood, her feelings, thoughts, beliefs and perceptions.

Taker Truths: You do others an injustice when you try to fix them. You're telling them (without realizing) that they aren't capable, they are too stupid to solve their own problems, too dense to understand why they keep repeating their own mistakes. You are telling them you're better than they are when you enable their bad behaviors; because all harmful acts go both ways...hurt their spouse and themselves. When you act with awareness from your Taker, you honor they are as in control, powerful and equal to you...because you know they have a Taker, too.

Your love language may have been gifts...and she was taught that love was power (not love)...that gifts were grace...and when you hurt her, she took back her grace, her gift. Silly? Immature? Absolutely. You not getting she was hurt or afraid? What do you call that?

After the first shirt take-back, your Taker would have said, "Okay, that really hurts." And the next gift, you don't accept. Sounds silly for a husband and wife...nonetheless, your Taker would have said, "No thank you. We define gifts differently. Feels like you take your love away from me."

The symbol of your daughter's picture in your office, and her removing them, was huge...don't count out how much information she gave you right there. That she gave you the gift of your daughter and you, in some way, said she was stupid, trash, incapable, and she wanted to take back her gift of your daughter.

Silly? Immature? Miscommunicative? Absolutely. Your Taker could have, right then, said, "Wow, you really must be hurting because you're hurting me, too." Calling folks on their actions is an act of love...what is not calling them on, then?

I don't believe you really accepted her horrific acts at the time...a coping skill. In that trade off, you don't accept what she's telling you, asking of you, not accepting her love, pain or fear, either. We don't when we're too busy trying to solve them.

I share this so you will know she's not a monster and how vital it is for your Taker to be present, aware...and watch how the Giver will deceiving through justification and the Taker will be radically honest...and yes, each have their purpose. You remain responsible for them, in your control, in you.

Don't fix your next wife, 'k? Don't disrespect and break down, talk down to her, confirming she can't handle her own stuff...you wouldn't want that done to you and for them to call it love.

Removing your presence when she was aggressive is your Taker. Choosing to believe she could squash your Taker with fury was a way to betray yourself and reinforce she was the problem to solve.

Not you.

Not one bit of this post caused her to have an A. No matter your attitude, your choices...that alone was hers. The state of the marriage before the affair, what you normally work through during recovery from an affair, still awaits you...even without recovery. Please look to finding your balance, taking ownership of your Taker and your Giver, so that you can fully recover, over time, and understand.

To repeat would deepen the pain, just as not recovering lengthens it. Be good to yourself. Learn to be really good to yourself, your best friend, bringing out your best self and pointing out when you're back into old coping ways.

For you, your daughter, and your next relationship.

I believe your W, btw, was as big a pleaser as you are. She became aggressive and furious when you didn't respond in the way she wanted when she gave you what she thought you wanted. That's how beautiful the Giver becomes from so many lies to please...it's brutal.

Receiving is giving the other person the chance to experience joy of giving. Your W, pre-A, gave. Find those ways...because you will be lured by the next woman in the same way...be aware. And know what response she expects when you meet her...she'll appear totally opposite of your by-then-x-wife...and she won't be.

LA

Holy Cow... LA...

I feel like I owe you at least a couple hours pay.

I appreciate your thoughts more than you know. That is alot to chew on and I will do so diligently.

Thank you very much.

You know...

I have been thinking about alot of things since we have split up. I realize alot of what I have been doing, accepting, and not doing as well. All of these things were within MY realm of influence, without a doubt. And while I DON'T want to belittle their importance nor my effect upon our marriage, the things which I had no control over were really the issues for me which pushed us over the edge.

Trust was the biggest issue. I simply couldn't trust her and she made no visable/appreciable attempt to change that fact. She was capable of looking me in the eye and lying to my face, even while knowing without a doubt that I knew the truth of the matter she was trying to lie about.

And lack of repect... now respect must be earned, there is no doubt. However, there was no earning respect from my wife. She has no/little respect for anyone and anything I have found. She seems to live in a self-indulgent world in which it only affects HER, but one in which she has no effect UPON. Taking something of someone else's for her own use then refusing to put it back was NOT something from within ME... that came from within HER. Feeling that she could ignore my boys but that I needed to improve my relationship with her girls did not come from either me or my boys... it came from within HER.

I could have tried to POJA until I was blue in the face, but she simply didn't respect me and my thoughts. She always seemed to feel that if I had a belief/idea counter to her own at the moment, then it was because I was 'mean' or a jerk. NOT that I had a different belief or idea about something, which was valid and legitimate. I rarely felt legitimate in my realtionship. I believe she felt I didn't accept her, but I could not have tried to accept her thoughts MORE than I did. It was simply that whenever mine were different, she immediately 'blew me off' as the 'boss' or 'ignoring her wishes', no matter what I would do. There were times in which she would have an entire conversation IN HER HEAD, as if she were talking to me and I had shot her idea down. THE REALITY would then be that she treated me in REAL LIFE as if I had been a jerk, and shot her idea down and ignored her. EVEN THOUGH IT ALL HAPPENED INSIDE HER HEAD!!!! I remember several times, when she would begin to speak... hesitate... and I could see it going on in her mind... "Well I think this, but he will just think that, and I will say this, and he will say that, and then he will win, he is such a jerk!" And then she would simply ignore me and be mad. There was NOTHING I could do to return to the conversation, because in her mind, I had already shot her idea down or forced my view or etc etc etc. There is NO WAY TO DEAL WITH THAT in a normal world context. In her MIND I DID IT... but in reality I was not even in the room.

THIS didn't come from my intereaction WITH HER... it came from INSIDE HER.

Yes, my taker was weak, but not initially, just after it was repeatedly shot down over and over again. There was NO enforcement, because the only ways I could deal with it were to put up with the issues or leave. No middle ground... no talking... I don't know HOW to keep a stable Taker in service any longer. I don't know HOW to evaluate and influence events when my Taker is utterly ignored or even castagated and degraded. I am uncertain of skills which would allow me to bend, but neither hide nor run. I have felt, during this marriage, that my only options were to Stand there and take it or leave. I still think, that with THIS marriage, that is relatively accurate. However I UNDERSTAND that this is NOT optimal.

It scares me because I KNOW that my skills at boundry enforcement in the face of my ENs being ignored or inadequately met will require that I find a way to lovingly ensure that my spouse/GF or whatever in the future, hears what I need and respects the needs as LEGITIMATE. I think that is the biggest reason my marriage failed... she didn't see my ENs as legitimate nor respect me enough to want to be the person who fulfilled them. I believe she loved me... and still does. However, to her... that means something different than it means to me.

Wow, you are doing some amazing reflection there! Good job.

I know just how you feel about trying to deal with your wife's mind, eerily similar actually. I felt the same way with my WH and through the years often thought, "I just can't compete with his mind" (so much projected and assumed that was not even based on reality). You maybe also felt like banging your head into a wall whenever you tried to have a 'discussion' (or a fight)....it never gets you very far because they are working from an entirely different level of awareness (or lack thereof) that is completely skewed. So frustrating.

I think it's great for you to keep working with IC to not only get through your current grief, but also to pinpoint what your NEEDS are and the parts (red flags) you overlooked when dating your wife that you will not want to overlook once you start dating again.

CantFig:

I was in your shoes and I went through all the analysis too. Keep it up. Yes, you hit this situation right on the head... Respect and Boundaries.

I remember the pain. It was horrible. I blamed myself for months. Then I begin really thinking about what my 19 years was like. I talked to my counselor and pastor, friends, family. They all filled in missing things that I had forgotten or forgiven. Yes, it was abuse (PTSD) but i ALLOWED it to happen.

Keep up the good work and listen to all the good advice you are given.

I recognize that I did try to change her after we married. I am not exactly sure what I should have done, but I know that I found I did not respect the person she became or showed me after we married. It breaks my heart, because truthfully, I am not sure what I SHOULD have done.

We began counseling with a Christian counselor 4 months after marriage, at my request. I went about 20 times, she went about 5 and we went together 3 times then she wouldn't go any longer because she felt she was being ganged up on by two guys. So I looked for a female counselor and began with her. Again, I went about 30 times, she went about 6 and we went together 3 before she quit going.

I found she was looking for sex on the internet and asked her to move out. I went to a counselor for myself... to just keep myself going, because I felt things ending and didn't want them to, but knew that I would be better off if I was working maximally if they did go down. She wanted me to make her an appointment, but I told her I wouldn't, but gave her a card. After 4 months she finally went. I think she went 3 times alone and 3 times together and that was that. After the 3rd time she filed for divorce. All this was over the course of 3 1/2 years.

Along with all this, I tried MB principles to little avail. Oh... she was thrilled with my plan A... but did nothing in return. I never really did plan B, but was about ready when she decided she wanted a divorce. The last time I spoke with her was that last counseling session, she kissed me on the cheek. We have had no contact other than a few sparse emails since that time. Seen her physically only once in 3 weeks.

But yes... I tried to change her. I tried to introduce MB, buying the CDs, Books, everything. Asking for MB weekend at least 3 times. She read only HNHN, at least she said she did. I worked as hard as I could to BE a good husband to her and father to her girls. I tried to change her choice to ignore me. I tried to change her choice to ignore my boys.

I did NOT try to change her simply for my own edification. I realize NOW that I was trying, in all actuality, to help her 'REVERT' to who she had been when I was dating her. The person she was when I asked her to marry me. I kept thinking I had to work harder at being better so she could go back to being the REAL HER, rather than this person. The odd thing is that SHE said at least 4-5 times in the last 6 months that she wanted to 'just date' like before. I believe she equated how much differently things were before we married as well, but does not equate the changes to how drastically differently she treated me and my boys upon marriage. It is almost as if she believes there was something 'magical' about dating which cannot be had while married. I can't quite relate to how she thought that dating would make a difference. All our marriage, I tried to get a baby sitter to go out, but she refused to leave the girls with 'someone she didn't know'... so we went out little and almost constantly had the girls with us, regardless. I went so far as to set up an interview with 2 candidates, all she had to do was call for a time... she simply ignored it. We couldn't even really go on a vacation, because it was a Rube Goldberg mix of family and friends trying to coordinate care for the girls instead of having someone consistent. So the whole vacation was always shortened and she was constantly talking about 'hope so and so picked up the girls.... Hope they got off the bus OK... etc.' Now... I could have afforded WHOMEVER we wanted... but she just wouldn't OK it.

So YES... I DID try to change her... what does that MEAN?

Does it mean that she was inadequate? Perhaps... at least in several areas she certainly was, or rather her choices in action or behavior were inadequate for me and my needs. I needed more and better interaction with my boys. She HAD been wonderful when we dated, but then began ignoring them overtly, choosing her friend's children over mine, when there was any trouble. She would HIDE information concerning my children, divulging it in dribs and drabs... piece-meal as she saw fit, and only the pieces she chose at any given time. When I asked her why... she said she didn't want to 'injure' her friend's relationship with her son. Are you F'ing KIDDING ME!!! She ignored MY RELATIONSHIP with MY SON... in her OWN HOUSE in favor of her friend's relationship with her son. THIS is who I LOVED????? OMG... where was my mind? Why couldn't I kick her out at that point? She ignored my request for information and obviously COULDN'T see how her actions and choices were effecting ME, my SON, and our MARRIAGE.

I was so blind... I am SICK thinking about what I was willing to put my children through in order to NOT HURT HER CHILDREN by leaving her.

I just don't understand how she could have been so GOOD to my boys beforehand, and so aweful after saying 'I do'. THIS was REALLY THE PROBLEM... I just kept thinking I had to be good enough for her to 'GET BACK TO WHO SHE REALLY WAS'... I still don't understand and the circular thoughts just keep spinning round and round.

Had I been stronger... I should have left at about 6 months. Perhaps she would have cared enough at that time to actually work on things. As it was... things degraded far and away past what would have normally occurred. I kept things going long after they would have normally crashed.

Had I left when she still cared, maybe things would have turned out differently.

Maybe this is it. My weakness was feeling that by staying I was being strong. I thought by pushing down my taker, that I was being stronger for us BOTH. But in essence, it seems that I simply enabled poor choices and behavior to the point that she lost her desire to try, by the time that I had lost my ability to maintain nothingness.

By being stronger earlier, perhaps I could have instigated a situation which would have lent itself more to having her desire to do something for us, rather than subsist on finances and deceit.

You know it aggravates me to no end...

WHY DO I STILL LOVE HER?

Why do I still wish she would call or come over and want to talk about reconciliation? Why do I wish she would go to counseling for herself and ask me to 'hold on' and let her work through some issues on herself?

Man... see... even with all the crap, I am still the guy who is realatively steadfast. I read what I have written and it is true, why then do I still want to love so badly?

I know that if she ever read this posting, she would be angry because she would feel I am opening things to the public. That is not s person I could be with. I know that she would be angry because I felt this way, rather than SAD that I felt this way and wish to change it.

So WHY do I still feel that I could look past all this and forgive and ask forgiveness, if she would just work?

That is part of the problem I am facing right now. Despite the crap which has occurred in the last 3 weeks, I am in a defacto Plan B. And we know that plan B tends to preserve the love of the spouse. Unfortunately/fortunately I think it is working on me. Despite all the CRAP I know about and have rehashed, my basic instinct is to love. To love her daughters... to Love HER...

I think it is the disconnect which I find so difficult to understand. My love for her is not diminished, however, the dislike I have for her behavior is significant.

I believe that she has always loved me, however, her choices in how she chose to SHOW that love are so askew, that I wonder whether I have been truly ignorant, or whether her basic way of being and understanding is so severely outside my reality, that I cannot conceptualize it as anything other than brokenness needing love and support. I know that very early on, I felt that God had put her and her children in my life because I could be strong enough to maintain, as she grew. I realize that this was and still is, I guess as LA put it, somewhat abusive, in that I was not accepting of who she is, but what I thought she wanted/needed to become. It is just that even at this moment, I still see her as needing such love and support because she simply cannot see how her actions and choices completely negate and undermine what she 'states' she wants in life. It really makes me wonder whether I completely misread God's intention for me. I was a setup for her, because I wanted to be loving and felt that I could be good for someone. When she popped up, I really did feel like she was put there for me to be good to. Yes, it certainly was vanity, I can see that now, but I still must believe in, trust, and hope for divine work within my life. I felt that, unfortunately, my desires to love and ability to maintain were being used by God for the betterment of my wife, her girls, my boys, and also myself. Oh my word... how vain in all reality.

But I ask you... HOW... after you have fallen in love with a woman, and essentially adopted her daughters as your own, over the course of 18 months, HOW do you walk away when you realize that she has been lying to you in such a major way? I truly felt, when I found out about the origin of her second daughter, and the lies I had been told. I truly felt, that God was looking at me and asking, 'What are you going to do?' Are you going to forgive or walk away. To walk away, I would have had to walk out on my 'family' in my heart. I just don't have that mindset nor disability. Even though, it would have ultimately been the safest thing to do.

How do you look at yourself, and become willing to leave those you love, when the person you love is showing she is unwilling to love you in return. When you see the destruction she wreeks around her, and when she cannot see it herself?

How do you 'accept' it? I simply couldn't. I had to try to change it, and in so doing, I guess I was NOT good to her. But in my heart, it STILL feels as though I was trying to do what was right, not for myself, but for her and our family. Trying to help her to see her detrimental effects upon her daughters... I could have accepted that, but I really COULDN'T just accept it. The neglect I felt...I could have accepted it as part of her, but I couldn't.

LA... how could I NOT try to change the circumstances of our marriage? I know that MB says to do it from the inside, but when I did that, there was nothing but a bigger wrent in the dam, she became much more accepting of things I gave, but still little came back out. How do you accept the person without accepting the behavior... or vice versa? I always loved my wife, but so many of her actions were so opposed to my general way of being and thoughts, that I began to constantly feel somewhat repulsed by her. For instance, she began having an increasing friendship with someone whom she had previously termed as being a 'b*tch'... but after a little while, she began saying that SHE was ALSO a 'b*tch' and she LIKED IT!!! What do you do in that instance? When the person you see is NOT a person you can respect in any form or fashion?

I was caught between my love, which was solid and secure... and my feelings that the person I was married to was someone so completely different than who I had ASKED to marry me.

I have looked back on things so much, and simply can't see where I could have been different in a meaningful way? Expressing my needs and feelings only brought on contempt. And yes, Contempt is the correct word. She has a baseline contempt for most anything which causes her the slightest discomfort. Just TRY to find something more discomforting than a spouse...

I don't know how I could have dealt with her differently in a meaningful way.

Maybe our first counselor was right several years ago, when he said, 'Sometimes you just simply make a mistake.' This was from a very pro-marriage Christian couselor. It just still FLOORS me that she could 'want' at least I believe she wants about the same things that I want, and yet believe so differently about how to go about getting them... I just don't understand it at all.

Cant, you are approaching this from the mindset that your wife is emotionally healthy and capable of loving you (and others) in the way that you have loved her.

From what you have written and admitted you have seen in her, she is very disorderd and most likely has a personality disorder. She is not CAPABLE of loving you in a healthy way or of having a 'normal, healthy' relationship with you, no matter how much you tried or no matter what you did or didn't do. It's just not there for her!!!

Your grief process is normal because your love for her was real. I think she tried to love you and have a relationship with you, but you can't squeeze blood from a turnip...you cannot expect her to give something that she doesn't have or isn't capable of giving right now (or possibly ever).

To ignore that she is likely BPD (and thus incapable of being in a healthy relationship with anyone without INTENSE therapy) is like trying to pretend someone who has Alzheimer's still has a perfect memory and then being surprised when they score low on their MMSE.

You know Sidney... you are absolutely correct. It makes perfect sense in that I was never able to really connect with her, despite everything I tried. As soon as our marriage began things changed and it was a dramatic change. As soon as the rules changed and there was something really too lose, everything changed. It was exactly like I was asking for something which she literally couldn't give. Not because she didn't WANT to perchance, but even had she wanted to, she couldn't have because she didn't HAVE it to give.

Our MC said something similar, but in a bit of a less obvious form once, and it really hit me then, however, not as bluntly. He said "You are sitting here telling her what you need, and she is sitting there telling you 'she doesn't have it to give'." I HEARD that... and I have thought alot about it, but not in the same sense as you just stated it. When I heard it before, I was thinking she didn't have it because I hadn't been enough of what she needed to build it. However, I think that you are right and it is actually because as much as she wants to... she literally just doesn't have what I need. She tries to be loving, but her baseline anger surfaces so quickly, that it is hard to see the love through all the consternation and deceit. She tries to be honest, but she simply has no trust, therefore is unable to trust that she can be wrong but still be loved.

I had always thought that it was merely a choice to neglect me and my boys, mostly because she was able to do such a good job when we were dating. I still don't understand her ability and choices when we dated versus when we were married. I KNOW she could be loving towards my boys, but when I asked her directly she just 'wouldn't' I really don't think it was a 'couldn't' because she 'could and did' before. I still can put this variant behavior into place. She was certainly able and willing to be sexually fulfilling when we dated. Once again, this stopped almost immediately upon marriage. One thing which is actually consistent however, is her inability to talk or discuss anything about our relationship.

So... on the one hand... I absolutely agree that if she has a personality disorder or as the MC stated "Sure exibits alot of BPD traits at least" then all this discussion is moot. On the other hand, it is still difficult for me to wrap my head around the fact that at one point... she was so completely LOVING and KIND to both me and my kids. I guess that is part of the problem... but MAN... it is still so hard to adjust my thinking to.

Thanks for the Help Sid... I appreciate your feedback and thoughts more than you know. It really helps me to see what I am saying and incongruencies which I am unable to recognize.

I have thought so much about MY reaction to her and MY apparent inability to see the reality rather than what I HOPED would be reality.

My love is and has always been absolutely true. But I have wondered what it was based upon. I believe that it was based upon two things. One... it is WHO I AM first and foremost. I am a lover... regardless of what she might want to believe, my basic structure and how I look at the world is to be kind and love. I tend to see the 'good' far more often than the 'bad' in situations. I believe that I OVEREMPHASIZED the good things in our relationship early on and overly DE-EMPHASIZED the bad things. This combination resulted in a skewed view of our relationship, and I think that this has led me to 'believe' there was more 'good' at the beginning than at the end. When I think of why I loved her early on... I can relate a HUGE PORTION of that love to just a couple incidents.

One was while we were at my youngest son's baseball game. We were standing there, in the crowd of parents, watching the game. I had my arms crossed and she was to my right. She reached around me, pulled me close, reached up with her hand, turning my head down towards her and kissed me. A deep, strong, wet kiss right there in front of EVERYONE. She looked into my eyes, not saying a word. Hugged me close... then just kept her arm around me, holding me. THAT was a HUGE love bank deposit for me, and I think I kept chasing that Baseball kiss the rest of my relationship. Kind of like drugs... I knew it was in her, but never saw it again.

The second, was when we first took all our kids out together as a group. It was about a year after we met, and we were out at a pumpkin farm, getting pumpkins for Halloween. They have some play equipment there... we were all laughing and playing together. Everyone was enjoying everyone. She sat on a swing and my oldest boy, about 10 at the time, ran over and jumped on her lap. She laughed and gave him a hug. I snapped a picture and still have it hanging in my hallway.

I believe it was a few instances like these which made me believe she really cared in a way in which was incredibly meaningful to me. It was these sorts of things which still make my heart soar. But it was also these things which mitigated the neglect I felt during our marriage. I kept trying to 'chase that baseball kiss' thinking that was the REAL person, and I just had to be good enough to deserve that kiss again. I just kept thinking that if I was good enough, she would love and treat my boys like she had before.

It wasn't that we had NO good times during our relationship. It wasn't that we NEVER made love nor she NEVER was good to my boys. It was that those instances were too far and few in between to be relevant to LIFE. At least a happy one. I loved when she gave me hard thought gifts. She was a great gift giver. But that wasn't what I needed most from her, and she would not listen to me when I told her what I needed. So I felt neglected, although I am sure she thought she was giving 'just fine'. She was a great cook and I loved that about her. She made me so proud to be married to her for that reason, and yet, she would go off about a cashier, who she felt had slighted her, for hours

I just put too much weight on the few things which she did that I absolutely LOVED and not enough weight on the things she did which bothered me.

It scares me, because I don't want to be either hypercritical and non-accepting... nor the way I have been, seeing too little through Rose-colored glasses.

One thing I noticed, when I reread some of my posts from 07 was that the huge change in my wife appeared immediately upon us being married. HOWEVER, as I wrote it in 2007 I wrote that it seemed that she was angry all the time and I didn't notice it until I was WITH HER EVERY DAY. Which, obviously, only happened after we were married. Up until then, we saw each other on weekends and a night or two each week. We lived about 15 miles apart and both had kids, so most of the time, we were apart.

As I think about it now... that is correct. She could hold it together for the relatively little bit we saw of one another. However, when we were together WITH OUT CHILDREN, all under the same roof, it didn't matter HOW big the house was, things were going to happen. And it did...

I just feel so bad for her. I love her dearly, and I see her just slipping away. I would help her... I would love her while she sought help if she would. I would support her... because I love her and want to be a good husband to her, and a good daddy to our girls.