It's been my position for my entire adult life that if a woman doesn't want to have enthusiastic sex with her H for any extended period of time (with the exception of temporary sickness or pregnancy) then she runs the risk that her H will have this EN met somewhere else and by someone else.

Marriage, whether it is a religious rite or a cultural one is essentially a promise made between two people. We promise to be faithful, but that promise is made on the premise that we're both going to meet each other's physical needs. When the terms of a contract are unfulfilled, the entire contract is null and void.

Before entering into marriage, people should be counselled regarding the pitfalls of the bait and switch. A man who cheats due to his W's "aversion" to sex isn't to be blamed because BOTH have cheated. The W cheated the H out of his emotional needs and the H cheated by going outside the marriage. Until we accept that BOTH SIDES aren't without fault, this problem will never be repaired.

For what it's worth, I'm a Woman and I believe that women who make a huge deal out of "romance" dreamers--no better than men who sit home and wish they were married to porn stars and stick-thin actresses. It's all an illusion of our own making.

Good job aeri!

AntiChick has good points too. Common sense applies to all of this. You simply don't want the spouse having to jump through hoops for sex, however I do understand these points.

If the spouse is rejected constantly for an extended period of time then BAD things will happen. For me, it turned my ego into a whimpy, nice-guy, 'sickening type of guy' that further compounded the problem.

My 'Manning-Up' so to speak put my boundary in place and allowed me to distance myself from this abuse. And yes, I view it now as abuse.

Jumping through a hoop is once in a while is fun.
Having to jump through hoops all the time is no fun.
Not getting the dog biscuit and the pat on the head creates resentment.

Worse yet is when the hoop keeps getting raised higher and higher.
Or there are hoops lined up, one after the other.
Usually this is done in complete innocence. The Ringmistress thinks that's the way it ought to be, a challenge.

Then there is the hoop that wasn't on fire when you left the ground.
Or the hoop with the muddle puddle on the other side.
Those are just mean.

100% agreed.

There are great posts here since the last rambling thing I put up here.

I appreciate what TheAC posted. She may not think that's scientific, but all that sounds right and focus groups and polling data has probably released data with less.

I just had this thought- I WILL jump through hoops. I WOULD do the equivilant of a 440 hurdle race (but don't expect a 1:20), light a hoop on fire for all I care. I am in love with my wife. I am attracted to her...but feel this void for a lack of a sex life. If SF was at a finish line, I would do whatever was set out in front of me (JUST DON'T KEEP PUSHING THE FINISH LINE FURTHER AWAY).

Would I resent having to that to get to SF? Not if she gave me some assurances with SF...telling me she appreciated me doing whatever she put in front of me, telling / showing me that she's mutually attracted to me, and that she would look forward to me meeting the next obstacle course she'd set up.

I HEAR that. Its when it doesn't matter WHAT you do ever over the long term. When NOTHING works. Your need/desire/longing for SF is dismissed as less important. Your needs are sacrificed to the never ending TO DO list which contains mostly "Optional" tasks. SF isn't even on the list but it would certainly be listed as optional even if it made it on the list. Not too tired for 1-15 but #16-SF.....too tired. Well yeah, after doing 1-15 you WOULD be too tired. Of course date night and face time ALWAYS make the weekly and daily lists, because THOSE are important. Those are worthy pursuits. SF.....well, we'll try to find the time sometime this week or next or next.....or next. "We'll see."

My wife knows what its like to be desired personally and physically. She has absolutely no reason for doubt whatsoever. I KNOW she knows I desire her both ways, and she tells me and others that she is a happily married woman.

I know what its like to be desired personally. She likes being my friend..........What I wanted was a lover..........I got a good friend who deigns to have sex with me on occasion. She enjoys it as long as its not too often. Just once in my marriage, just once, I'd like to know what it's like to be desired.

My wife told me when she used to work outside the home years ago that sometimes the ladies in the office would sometimes start commenting sexually about different men etc. Her response was "Why would I want hamburger when I have steak at home!" That sort of made me feel good, but really, what good is steak(I'm NOT steak) if you just keep it in the freezer? Eventually it gets old and should be thrown out......and I AM getting old. My youth is gone...

How many posts have I read women complain "It makes me feel like a piece of meat..." You know, just once in my marriage I wish I knew what that was like. If she could actually be hungry for me sexually. I think I could die a happy man.

Land:

My simple advice:

1) Have a talk with your wife. Keep it simple and brief. Maybe something like... I will not live in a sexless marriage. Put a smile on your face and leave the room if she does not respond. Don't get bogged down with the List that she may come up with. Keep it polite, no anger whatsoever!

2) Work on yourself. Workout, lose weight if needed, become more attractive.

3) Stay gone more often. Go hang with your guy friends.

4) Keep relationship talk (no sex talk) down to zilch!

5) No sex initiation. Take back your power and piece of mind.

6) Wait 3 months. Be prepared to back up your boundary. Not cheat but maybe separate.

my 2 cents... I know this is a difficult issue so it is easy for me to arm-chair quarterback! I could not not do my own advice with my XW but I was able to do this with my fiance.

This seems to be very positive thing:

She probably isn't going to be very happy if you leave her. She will also be shamed, to all those friends to told about being happily married. That's better than someone who is in a State of Withdrawal, or ignoring your meeting their needs, and not caring if they hurt you.

Read Dr. Harley's article on, "Telling Your Spouse, 'Honey, We Have a Problem". Then have that talk to through some ice water in her face and wake her up. At least she sounds like she will probably be wondering, "What do I do? What do we do?"

The ready answer is Marriage Builders. You have been studying it, and you like the approach. You want her to investigate it. Don't let her just stick her toe in the water, or think about it. I tried that and it backfired on me. I would start at the top, on getting to a marriage counselor, like Steve Harley. Suggest an MB weekend. It only costs $50 more for a couple than for a single spouse, so tell her you think you are going to sign yourself up and go.

AC, that is good advice that probably would work with most women.

But what about the situations we are discussing, where the women are clueless about conversation, UA, RC, and SF?

* Wife is the one watching TV, and prefers that to going for walk with her husband?

* Wife is the one who only wants to discuss child rearing or her day. Maybe she is not very conversational with husband at all.

* Wife doesn't like to cuddle. Doesn't appreciate a spontaneous hug in the kitchen. Doesn't see the big deal about leaving for work without a nice word and a kiss.

* It never gets to the bedroom. Or wife drags herself to bed and falls right asleep. Or sits in the bed reading or working crossword puzzles and does not want to talk, because she is trying to unwind. She really enjoys SF, but never seems to think of it first, and once a month keeps her happy.

Well, I was speaking specifically to the "hurdles & hoops" thing.

What you're describing, is me in withdrawal. I grew up in a family that didn't touch, or express love or affection, AT ALL. It doesn't come naturally to me unless I'm in extreme intimacy with someone. I have huge trust issues, and I'm recently coming to realize they are deeper than I thought, and things I thought I'd laid to rest, I really haven't. So it's all too easy for me to slip out of intimacy with fairly small things, and start pulling away. I hate conflict, so I'll go straight to withdrawal. (I'm working on that.)

I'm a fairly extreme introvert, probably almost to the point of some sort of phobia or anxiety complex, which helps feed into the need for alone time when H wants together time. (He's an extrovert... go figure.)

So, just based on my own experience, I'd say she's in withdrawal. Now as to WHY, and what to do about it, can't say. It's certainly not fair or right.

Once again, I second, third and fourth what TAC is saying. I find myself in this state quite often. Or, as I referred to, on another thread, I go to 'snitville', where I can nurse my resentment in peace and quiet.

I wasn't describing any one real woman. I was applying TAC's list to a composite woman or women, using real traits described by some of the men above. Yes, a woman who did all these things would be in Withdrawal, and there are plenty out there (and here on MBs) who match up to more than one of those traits of being unreceptive to conversation, UA, RC, and affection. They think everything is All His Fault.

Other women feel happily married, but are still unaffectionate, too busy for conversation or RC with husband because of RC with friends, and simply oblivious to their husbands' attempts to engage them in UA time.

I like the idea "she is in withdrawal". As TAC says, if offering Conversation and Affection and RC don't work to entice her out of Withdrawal, then try something else. Don't be like me, and assume nothing will work. Assume something will work, and keep brainstorming and trying new things until you find it.

When you can't motivate yourself to try some more, it is time to Plan B. Hopefully before you have lost all love for your spouse.

If I waited until my H was perfect for a set amount of time before I actively met his EN's they would never get met. And vice versa. And the danger is that if I did that, I could twist things to make it seem as if it is my H's fault that I am choosing not to meet his needs. That's what we did to each other for years. Wanna know how well that worked? Not very.

Because I am someone who wants sex - I don't mean when planets align - I mean even if there are no planets, I am going to want sex. So DH and I can figure it out, or he can dig in his heels, or we can play marital chicken and wait to see who will hop onto the EN train first. The first option will probably lead to a happier M. The last to will not. Ever.

I like Hold's comment:

When you can't motivate yourself to try some more, it is time to Plan B. Hopefully before you have lost all love for your spouse.

Or they ARE very affectionate and are self-described "very happily married." tell you that they "LOVE being married to you", but NEVER make SF a priority. Its ALWAYS 15th item on a 10 item day. SF is 95% of the time pushed away because after the 10th item, they just want to relax, SF was not on the agenda so its an interruption of their plans, but "I loved our date tonight! I LOVE spending time just chatting with you for three hours straight and walking hand in hand afterward through the shops, but boy, am I tired. G'night"

Sure, we can get a rain-check, but somehow, the rain-check is never remembered and not redeemable.

Sometimes too it feels like putting deposit after deposit after deposit into her Love Bank. She says you have lots of credit, but when you try to spend some of the money, you find you've taken your car to Tire Pros in order to get a head gasket replaced.

"Hey man. You're credit's good if you want tires. We don't do head gaskets though. I'll get you any tires you want right now but engine work, no can do. Actually, come to think of it, my man Fred moonlights one weekend a month to help out and he does that kind of thing sometimes. Lets see if we perhaps can squeeze you in next month, maybe."

In other words, what landschooner and the other guys are saying on this thread is, it's not always as simple as "fulfill her ENs and she'll fulfill yours, including SF". I'm beginning to suspect, based on what I've read and heard here and elsewhere, that some women just don't like sex very much at all for various reasons, many of them having little if anything to do with the husband and his behavior.

It could be because of FOO issues, including past sexual abuse, it could be major hormonal changes from childbirth or major illness or some other stressor, it could be that's she's always had a low drive and nothing but hormone therapy would fix it (which of course she won't consider because SHE'S fine with the way things are). In any case, the result is the same, little or no SF for the husband and no amount of meeting ENs will change that. The husband either has to live with that, or leave.

Don't get me wrong, more often than not the problem IS that the husband has stopped meeting ENs he used to (or her ENs have changed and he hasn't caught on) and he's engaging in LBs that kill desire. And all too often, men are too proud to admit they could be a major part of the problem. But what do you say to the husband who HAS seen it, admitted it, done all he can to fix it, may even have a happier wife as a result (or a wife who SAYS she's happier, anyway) but she's STILL not interested in regular SF? This seems to be a situation all too many SF-starved husbands on this board seem to be running into.

Off of MacNuts summary:

Marraige is interdependant, per HNHN. Its not "I get stuff, you dont" its "I meet your needs so you meet mine." Its not a BAD deal, like a hostage release negotiation, since with POJA both sides should enthusiastically support the agreement.

HNHN also talks about SF and how even if LBs arent an issue, and ENs are being met and LB is full, SF might still be an issue for someone, and he suggests some possible books or a sex therapist to help the uninterested spouse learn to ENJOY SF and therefore be more open to it. Check the suggested reading list at the end of the SF chapter.

So it sounds to me like if SF is an issue, Policy of Radical Honesty dictates that you openly tell your spouse your feelings and needs and ask them if they can meet them. POJA and the Negotiation Steps should guide you through a discussion where you really explore not just "my SF need is unmet," but why its unmet.

For this, dont listen to try to convince her to do it, listen to try to understand her. If you truly make her happy and Love Bank is full, then she should WANT to meet your needs and may be hard on herself when she realizes how important it is to you. Dont accuse her of not being good enough, tell her what you need. Trust her with your true feelings, if she still stomps on them or "doesnt care" then you know you have other problems anyway.

For some reason she is not connecting with you or the men who feel this way. Most women have to have that bond of closeness before we will even think about it.

I went to three different Drs asking what was wrong with me. asking for hormone tests, the magic pill what would ever work so I could have a sex drive. Because I was happy with once a month he wasn't.

Not one of them mentioned maybe you need to look at what is going on in your marriage.

Not knowing no UA,A,DJ's,RC,IB,FS,Ao's was causing this. Maybe they do & just not sharing.

My point is this there is something your missing dig deeper ...
because apparently she dosn't know what it is either.

Just one little hint pay attention to her monthly cycles if they are 28 to 32 apart. There is no hormone embalance.

One dr did share that with me.

If you explain to her in a thoughtful & concerned way about her health. She will go to a Dr she can talk to ( she maybe embrassed I know I was )& explain the problem & get the neccessary tests done.

Just thought of this one of the Drs that told me it was stress. Just caught her husband in bed with another women. So maybe she doesn't know either.