Just give her the space for now�I know it�s hard to do, but go about the daily routine�take care of yourself, make plans with the kids and invite her along, if she wants small talk, then engage in small talk�avoid discussing anything heavy�just have fun with your family.

Tonight, maybe you should�ve came home synched yourself into a good mood (nothings going to ruin this weekend) got the kids ready and said we�re leaving in 15 minutes�your welcome to come along and if she does, cool and if not, so be it�

My three year old came to me in tears apologizing to me for his Mommy not speaking to me.

I lost it. (I mean there were disrespectful judgments, selfish demands, and angry outbursts.)

I hope the temporary relief you felt in verbally abusing her was worth the setback you will now experience from your lack of self-control.

The only reason your three year old knew that there was a problem was because of choices the adults made (shame on both of you). You could have replied with a hug and kiss "It's okay, baby. I'm okay. Mommy is having a hard time today. Later, we can talk to her about that and how her not talking makes you feel. Right now, what do you say you and me get ready to go and have a nice time shopping with whoever wants to go?"

Instead, you unleashed abuse.

Do you think that was better for your child to see?

It's easy to justify our own bad behavior. But what you did to her was just as bad (or worse) than her choosing not to speak to you.

I think you need some help in dealing with your own anger issues if they are going to continue to be a problem in your marriage and for your children.

Thank you.


I agree that it is not. And I am willing to listen to her talk about it. And I've said so from the beginning. Here's the original discussion from yesterday:


Here's what I heard in my ol' brain...

Prisca shares her fear of not being able to POJA Subject X...she asks for your opinion. And you were with her. You're in it together.

Then she shares how much it means to her to relieve her fear. And then she shares her fear more obviously..."what if we can't?" Well, you went for the solve instead of saying the truth...

Whenever one of you shares a fear of the future, answer with honesty (not solving)..."We won't know until we get there. We'll get there together."

Steve as one of your tools...and one she doesn't want involved in Subject X. Okay. Good to know. She's not enthusiastic about using that tool...lay it down. Understand that solving fear isn't real and isn't really healthy.

And then the next day, what she heard was that she would have to feel that fear (which she looked forward to having relief from) for two to three months because you didn't want to talk about it.

Distill that into "I'm okay with you feeling anxious for that long until I'm comfortable."

No, that wasn't communicated directly or well...it's the exact same fear she hit back at you with the shut out for an undisclosed duration.

Both hurts.

You did a great thing here...you asked her what she heard...kudos. That's a fear-filled question sometimes. And you did that, anyway.

Then what?

Well...I'm confused. See, you saying you don't want to talk about it while talking about is a mixed signal. We don't do what we don't want to do...even when we're afraid, uncomfortable. You wanted communication more than the fear...you prize Prisca more...and then you say you don't want to talk about it (which includes listening to me...then you tell her if she wants to talk about it, you'll listen).

To me, you guys were talking Prisca fear and why you don't have fear (which is awesome conversation). And yes, it's in the marital code we tend to use before MB...when to rebuild connection, we change our language, go for precision and clarity, and at first, that can be awkward and a challenge in itself.

That's the fragile cup that Telly said. And you loved Telly's suggestion and bailed on not knowing how to bring it up, IMO.

And in her subsequent marital shorthand, Prisca told you just how awful it was for her to hear you say that her big fear had to engulf her until you both were further along in the program, or disclose it to Steve (which isn't what I thought you meant), or for 2-3 months.

Both of you hurt a lot in just a few minutes. Not what either of you wanted...or anticipated. You affirmed your goal together...to POJA this Subject X...and then you put it on hold as a resolution...which is very much a demand. Just like you heard her demand that you talk about what you didn't want to...

You didn't want to talk about her fear? You didn't want to acknowledge and validate her stuff? That's talking about it. What's to POJA about that? It's the very first step.

And POJA is a process...not an event. Prisca was asking if this time around you'd begin the process.


I think it is reasonable not to try to negotiate Subject X until we can negotiate smaller things successfully.[/quote]

Do you think it's reasonable if your wife says she's bleeding from a sore on on her hand...she has it...it's real...and it's there...and you say that it's reasonable to not stop the bleeding each time until you learn more about the sore?

To me, that's what transpired between the two of you. I know you would not leave your wife bleeding from the sore if you saw it...you would help to stop the bleeding (the immediate affects of hearing what is really important to you is put on hold for two to three months by your H). You would stop and bandage first...really hear and understand her fear and NOT determine if it was reasonable or not.

You'd see the blood.


Then POJA punishment. Takes two to have that cycle. One to dole it out and one to take it. Vibrissa and MrAnderson and others told you how not to take it. How to respond when you feel punished...I'm telling you how to not feel punished.

First, don't see her shut out as about you...she's shutting you out, the source of her love and loyalty. She's hurting herself, punishing herself and blaming you. It's her cycle. I suspect you have one, too.

Break the cycle by not buying in. You hurt. Own you hurt. Your job is to figure out why you hurt...not why she's in punishment mode. Shift your focus and see if your expectations of her response is part of that hurt. Expectations make it so we don't hear what our spouse is saying. And that's our part...

Know when you both are miscommunicating. Miscommunication is misunderstanding...both not being understood and not understanding. You seem great on the double-check of her...do it on yourself.


I would hope you would agree that I was trying to do just that![/quote]

Sorry to disagree. I totally believe in your intent was to really hear...you didn't see the shutdown you did...because hers was far more obvious.


Well, I did tell her. But only after the requests/demands that I stop emailing her. [/quote]

Would you gently consider this possibility in yourself? That when Prisca feels shut out, she shuts out back? (Mark, I think that wins the most awkward sentence award of the day.)

When you feel struck, you strike back?

Many ways we do this from our marriage of two becoming one...we can feel retaliation and we don't look at the ways we are retaliating...

This whole episode was actions from fear...not from love. Both of you contributed...and I think your fear of not knowing enough yet to not do further harm...and hers of having to wrestle her own Subject X fear for two more months alone...are what you're dealing with.

Own your fear. You have a partner who also fears...fears failing, more pain, extended pain...more sores of unknown origin...and one of you needs to act from love and not react to the fear.

I think, markos, that's really what you want most...to lead fearlessly. Won't happen. You'll feel fear. It's an unreasonable expectation...just as expecting Prisca to respond differently is unreasonable...because you are both getting to know each other in new ways today.

You had a very intimate conflict...didn't set you guys back, did harm your feeling compatible, did exacerbate your fear this marriage won't work (I call that going to the wall). Believe these conflicts will deepen your intimacy because you will keep looking at it, striving to understand, because those "lesser things" have all the same chemicals, same formula.

And you are sick from the toxins. Both of you.

You can do this. I hope Prisca will post and set me straight on her thread. She isn't safe from pain when she shuts out...she deepens it inside herself.

And when you get no response...focus on the fact you did share. It's a process. Don't judge all the steps...because the event is your marriage.

LA

My little children told me pretty clearly how upset they were to hear me angry with their mother. I confessed to them that I was wrong and that I should not have gotten angry and shouted. I told Prisca Friday night and then again Saturday how sorry I was, and I shared with her what the children had told me.

Prisca apologized to me for cutting off communication with me Friday without a timeframe. She said that she had felt her message implicitly meant "don't contact me for the rest of the day," so she thought there was a timeframe; hence her biting response to me when I asked about one. She didn't see that I was genuinely sincerely asking "How long?"

This is big. BIG! My wife apologized to me! So many times she has not done this, and she stepped right out and apologized and admitted fault! I feel like this is wonderful progress! This makes me feel so much better and more optimistic about the future.

We talked about Subject X and the process of coming to agreement on it. We are going to start taking a few minutes each, each week, just to talk to each other about our own viewpoints, in preparation for later work on coming to agreement.

Mark, when are you coming back to explain what in the world this meant?

Prisca told me she had no idea that she had told me to leave her alone without a timeframe until I came home Friday and told her.

If I had simply told her and left it at that, I would've probably received the same response a lot sooner and caused her a lot less pain. I might have needed to repeat it a few more times; not sure.

She had no idea, even though I had told her Friday from work (in email) what the problem was. I'm obviously more effective at getting my feelings and their cause across in person than I am in email.

Very good news - happy for you both!

I've found that what we percieve and what we say are often two different things. In her mind, of COURSE she meant the rest of the day - in your mind you have no clue how much time she needs so you're anxious and hurt. It IS big when you realize that and apologize when you are unclear.




I'm quoting LA all over the boards today but he mentioned this earlier in a thread and it's stuck with me.


This could be a safe framework to use for those discussions - each of you taking a turn on a different day to be the speaker/ listener. I'm sure LA will chime in with thoughts of her own.

Markos, looks like you guys hit another bump. It's great that you're back on track now. You'll get better @ this I'm sure. Each bump is a learning experience and since you both are talking about what went wrong, you can learn and grow...

I see you're both registered for the Weekend in May. Should help.

That sounds like enough forced talking to make Prisca go insane and hate me for suggesting it. She doesn't like such exercises, at all.

But we did come up with a fairly safe arrangement that I think she likes. Going to put it on our schedule for the week. For now all we need do is just tell the other about our own point of view, and for now it'll just be a few minutes at one go.

Good for you - as long as it's something

I agree. When I read it I became nauseus

Telly, it really helped Saturday, I think, for me to explain to Prisca that I did want to "POJA how/when we were going to POJA the issue," as you mentioned.

That's what I was trying to do over email Friday, but she didn't understand. She just thought I was brushing her off, giving her a perpetual "some day we'll talk about it."

markos, I don't know what Subject X refers to, but I can tell you from experience, whatever I tried to keep under wraps, it always turned out to be what I most needed to put out in the open.

Oh Markos,

I'm so happy you guys are not only recovering from your disconnection, but growing in understanding of one another as a result.

:-)

This is definite progress--see? You are no longer NEAR where you were before. Imagine how that would have ended in the past.

SO glad for both of you, and glad that both of you are here.

That may well be so, but I think Prisca doesn't want it that way.

Yoohoo, Mark, I know you're posting...

Focus on minutia (details)

Approximate a plan (let's try THIS!)

Take a swing and see where it falls (the term ballistic comes to mind -from the Greek, ballo, meaning "I throw")

MAKE it work no matter what (Reminds me of the Army. If you have a problem. The Army has a solution. If your problem can't be solved by the solution the Army offers, you modify the PROBLEM because the solution can't be modified)

If it isn't working...try harder to make it work (If I just push harder, I know it will fit)

Cover the damage so it can't be seen (Try to make up for it after the fact)

Just an observation...

Mark

Came home last night to a wife full of independent behavior who didn't want to discuss anything with me.

She's got plenty of justifications.

I got better results last time when I had an angry outburst. This is very frustrating.

You just let her own her stuff. I know how frustrating it is to watch someone be destructive when you know they know better, but I also know how frustrating it is to BE someone being destructive when I know *I know* better...try to find that understanding within yourself.