I have been aware of and believed in the MB principals for a few years now, but am finally reaching out and am new to MB forums.

My husband and I have been married almost 11 years with 3 kids between 1 and 5. We went through counseling before we had kids. In retrospect, it only masked the issues that have continued and resurfaced. I had been ignoring the issue and focusing on work and kids but it all came to a head in January.

We started with a new marriage counselor. One of my biggest issues and concerns has been a divide between the honesty and intimacy I desire to give and receive in my marriage and the privacy my husband feels he wants to retain for himself. I have tried for years to alter my desire for my marriage to be an intimate connection and an honest place to be myself (the good, the bad and the ugly) and to share that with my spouse.

My husband believes that some dishonesty is common and should be present in a marriage. That it is not healthy to be "radically honest". So anytime something came up that he would feel that way about, he would choose to lie, deceive or manipulate things to avoid the issue.

His personal counselor agrees with him (or so he tells me). I brought up the Marriage Builders principals in our marital session on Monday. I asked our counselor we have been using since January if she was familiar with the concepts and would we willing to help up try this plan. She said she knew of it, but when we discussed it further, she stated she also believed that "radical honesty" was not a healthy plan of action, and that not discussing some things (not sure what those might be) with a spouse is natural and protective of our own personal selves.

I am, honestly, confused and overwhelmed. I hold the belief that the marriage is the most important relationship I should have. I believe having a good/great marriage is a gift I can give my kids. It makes me a better friend, daughter and business person. And having my marriage be a safe place for me to turn to for support, direction, concerns is important to me but I want to have that be a shared experience with my spouse.

I feel that for the years I was honest and thought he was (but he wasn't), and the years after counseling and before I shut down emotionally, created an imbalance of power. I shared my issues in work, with my childhood, in friendships, in relationships, my fears, my insecurities, my desires and my dreams. He, however, kept his insecurities to himself, refused to see how his family dynamics weren't "perfect" and play a role in how he responds to others, and how he unilaterally decided by withholding information what I experienced in life (he'd say he didn't want me to be hurt, mad, insecure, etc - so he would do whatever it was he wanted to do and not tell me...to protect me).

So...this post is longer than I thought but I am looking for a "reality check". I would like to hear from those who have had a spouse that puts a large value on his privacy (he might be doing bad things or he might not but regardless) but was able to adapt to the MB principals. I would love to hear from anyone who was that person and made a change. I am also open to hearing if "radical honesty" in unattainable and unrealistic.

Thanks.

Hi DJMN,

Welcome to the board! Hope what you learn will be of great help to you.

I think 'Radical Honesty' is often misunderstood. You've read the MB materials, so you know what Dr. Harley means with it. For people who haven't read it, though, it sounds much like 'Brutal Honesty,' which is saying every d*mnfool thing that comes up in your brain.

The 'radical' in RH comes from the word 'root' - to be honest about the root of the problem. Not 'radical' as in 'radical animal rights activists' who blow stuff up.

But almost every non-MBer I talk to only uses the second meaning.

Brutal Honesty: "You're ALWAYS late! You're such an [censored]!"
Radical Honesty: "When you were 15 minutes later than you said you would be, I got really nervous because I need to know you're OK/I need clarity around the schedule."

So, first thing is to make sure you're on the same page when it comes to what RH even means. Is he hiding stuff because he fears it will hurt you or your opinion of him, or do you think he's hiding BIG stuff, like flirty females he spends too much time with?

Second, practice the Policy of Joint Agreement and look up the Friends and Enemies of Good Conversations, which you can find in the right sidebar.

Other board members will undoubtedly chime in!
Wolf

Wolf,

I'm certainly no expert in MB yet, but I would wholeheartedly agree.

I don't feel compelled to share every thought I have. That's not RH. I have some pretty un-complimentary thoughts. (I fluctuate back and forth into and out of withdrawal, unfortunately)

But I *am* responsible to communicate *healthfully* and *respectfully* anything about me or the relationship that affects H. I'm working on it.

Thanks for the posts.

I can't say if there is any "big stuff" these days. There was by him 6 years ago which is what led us to counseling. But because the "everyday stuff" (at least to me) and the "should be shared between couples" stuff isn't shared, I can't really say if there is any big stuff. I know for me, without the little stuff being honest, I always distanced myself just in case the big stuff comes to light. And I decided I don't want to rob myself and a spouse of that closeness any longer. It is not fair to me to close myself off, it is not the experience I want for my kids, and while he may accept it, I want a spouse that wants more from me.

It's not the brutal honesty that I seek but a level of honesty that allows my partner and I to find a safe place in each other. I consider myself generally normal when it comes to feelings, insecurities, needs, etc. But I am more "guy like" when it comes to problems (I am quick to want to fix it), and the roles we each play at home (he cooks, is home earlier than I - I work later hours, can rewire a light). But I love conversation regardless the topic, and at the end of the day, so appreciate the strength a man brings to a relationship.

So for example, I can feel insecure if my husband had a meeting with an attractive woman. I know this is about me and very possibly unwarranted. But I want to feel it is OK to tell him I feel insecure. It is my fear, my issue, and a show of "weakness" in my part. But I want him to know I feel this way because he may have words of affirmation for me. He will know why I might come across as more sad. I could get affirmation from friends, but I would like to have that with my husband.

He too has insecurity issues like this with me, but refuses to ever admit them or share them. He stuffs them or ignores them but I am sure his failure to share them impacts our relationship on various levels. He can be passive-aggressive. Recently, he was worried when I wanted to join the gym (3 kids in 5 years), so instead of telling me, asking me, sharing with me his concerns, he told my mom. His level of agitation was high enough that she felt compelled to drive to my office to see if my truck was there and call him to tell him it was. So he feels relief from his insecurity, never has to address it head on, or seek comfort from me, or even allow be to provide that comfort.

But I want to feel it is OK to share those things so we don't spend our lives with anxiety, secretly checking, or stuffing and being passive-aggressive. And by me sharing anything or everything in my world, when he doesn't, it creates this great imbalance of power. I come across as needy, weak, insecure, and invasive because on the surface, nothing bothers him and he is stronger that those things (that is the image he wants to portray to others and himself).

I finally arrived at a place where I was ready to let him go. I asked for a separation, which for me, was just the room I needed to move towards a divorce. I felt sad, but OK in my skin that when I later had to tell my 3 kids why I did this (and yes, it would have been my fault), that I did it because I believed XYZ and daddy believed something else. But now, again, he wants to try and save the marriage. I don't know that I have the strength to do so if we are just working to go back to secrecy.

So before we start...again...on counseling, I just wanted to come out and ask others if for them, the MB program provides them with an intimate, open, rewarding relationship it seems to present. It seems so contrary to our current culture on relationships. Our current counselor did not think it was a good idea to try it. I wonder if it will be hard to find others that can accept or support that values the MB places on the marital relationship.

I desire to have my spouse also be my best friend, and I, his. The one that knows me better than anyone else. The one that could blackmail me if I ever decided to run for public office, but wouldn't dream of it. The one that allows me to experience all there is in this world, good and bad, and still have a safe place to come back to and process it. I don't want it to be a contest of who appears stronger in their character, when looking at the values our society places on men and women. I can stand strong in my professional world, but I just want something more welcoming in my personal world.

But maybe I have created an unrealistic vision. Before I start on this journey, I am ready to hear others' perspectives. I am ready to hear it all.

You are dancing so fast AROUND the topic that I cannot grasp what you are saying here.

1. What issues was your husband not honest about?

2. What things cause your husband not to trust you?

3. Does your husband think you are at risk of having an affair/

4. Did either of you have an affair or a friend of the same sex?

5. Can you trust your husband never to have an affair?

6. Lay out what are the honesty issues here.

And why do you think MB is contrary to our culture on relationships? I think our culture does believe in honest marital relationships. Unless I am wrong. But does not everyone want a happy, honest, fun filled marriage?

DJMN, I would IMPLORE you to get phone coaching with Steve Harley or go to a Marriage Builders weekend before you throw in the towel. Many of us here have happy, romantic, fulfilling marriages just from using this program. You and your H can be taught to fall in love and meet each others needs. I see so many OBVIOUS problems here that MB could easily fix. For example, your husband can be taught to be honest. His dishonesty is a HUGE LOVEBUSTER that has caused you to fall out of love. Yet, your silly counselor tells you that it is ok to be dishonest. Now, you can see how that has eroded your feelings for your husband with your own eyes. The solution is not to tell you to get over it, becuase that will not cause you to fall in love; the solution is OBVIOUSLY to stop doing the thing that is eroding your love.

The next glaring problem is that your husband believes it is a virtue to be silent about things you do that bother him. He engages in the destructive practice of SACRIFICE, which is a sure fire ticket to INCOMPATIBILITY.

Your marriage can easily be saved if you just get counseling from a QUALIFIED counselor who knows how to save marriages. Marriage Builders is completely different from traditional counseling in that a) it is a behavioral approach that takes a very short period of time to see results and b) its goal is ROMANTIC LOVE, something traditional counselors don't even believe possible for obvious reasons [reason being they don't have a CLUE how to achieve it]

Don't waste your time with tried and failed traditional counselors. They have ann 84% failure rate and have a higher divorce rate than the general population.

DJ, check out these 2 links:

Does Marriage Builders really work?

How Dr Harley learned to save marriages

I think you have a worthy AND realistic vision. I might not have said "realistic" some time ago, but the folks on this forum who have achieved it have changed my mind.

Whether or not it is realistic with MY marriage is another story. But neither of us will know until we try.

One belief that has truly changed is the belief in privacy. There is no room for privacy in a marriage.

I wanted to add that people who are uncomfortable with honesty in their marriages usually have something they are hiding. Not necessarily an affair or something like that. When I was younger, pre-marriage, and dating, I always told the guy I was dating everything about myself, and I'm pretty certain that they guys I dated did the same. We knew all about each others' "dark side" and family histories. My mother thought this was just awful . . . she didn't know anything about my dad's family before they got engaged, and she didn't want to know, because, in her words, "The past is in the past." I often wonder what kind of secrets there are in both of my parents' pasts, because they certainly haven't shared that with each other, and that would explain why each of them has behaved out of fear toward the other for their entire marriage.

I too have struggled with honesty and privacy in marriage because of what I grew up with. But just because my parents were not radically honest doesn't mean that's the way to go. Yes, they are still together, but they are not at all in love and never have been as far as I could tell, and to me that was just as damaging as having parents who were divorced.

[quote=DJMN So for example, I can feel insecure if my husband had a meeting with an attractive woman. I know this is about me and very possibly unwarranted. But I want to feel it is OK to tell him I feel insecure. It is my fear, my issue, and a show of "weakness" in my part. But I want him to know I feel this way because he may have words of affirmation for me. He will know why I might come across as more sad. I could get affirmation from friends, but I would like to have that with my husband.

He too has insecurity issues like this with me, but refuses to ever admit them or share them. He stuffs them or ignores them but I am sure his failure to share them impacts our relationship on various levels. [/quote]

Why should your husband open up to you, when he knows you are not open and honest about your feelings with him? You need to start working on what you control, which is your withholding your feelings from your husband.

His not expressing his opposition to your joining a gym could have been solved by the two of you practicing the POJA. POJA forces you to lay a lot of your objections on the table. You had it in your power to initiate a POJA discussion about joining the gym. You didn't. You acted on your own, and now complain that he objects. Did you expect him to object, and that's why you did it without telling him?

Thanks for all of the posts.

First off, we registered today for the online program. I am out of town for the May in-person session so if we still need to do that, we will do it at the next one offered.

We discussed our state of marriage and I had given him the MB information. He went online to look over things. He says he is open to trying this. He says it will be hard and he has some concerns that he won't be able to make it work. But there is nothing else to lose.

I grew up in a very dishonest family, and have always preferred to "tell it as it is" so I can both address my issue, and hopefully find ways to not do it again..whatever it is. My husband grew up in a family where his father decided what information his mother would know, based on how he interpreted her response to be. In my newbie assessment based on MB principals, a lot of dishonesty to support independent behavior. That is what he brought into our marriage.

To address some of the questions from Bubbles4U -

1. Anything he felt he didn't want me to know. Examples: Who might be attending an event he was at, things his family said or expressed about me, that he stopped to play poker and wasn't at a business meeting the whole time, that someone else planned an event when in fact he did but thought that way he wasn't responsible, that a boss told him he had to go somewhere instead of saying he wanted to go, that a female friend he had had from high school was not someone he slept with but actually did, etc.

2. I work longer hours than he does and because we have stopped sharing a marriage, he has what I would say are normal insecurities. But he won't admit them to me (maybe not to himself even) so I can't even help him feel more secure.

3. He is most worried I will meet someone else that fills my love bank. I have waited many years wanting him to be that person. But I have put my needs on hold and isolated myself to avoid having that happen. But he is right. I would be at the most risk of getting my needs met from someone else and not a physical affair. I see them both as bad so don't misread that. But I do not believe there is anything specific that makes him fearful now, just that I have slowly disengaged myself from the relationship.

4. I don't believe that either of us has had an actual full-fledged affair (I haven't - don't think he has). But there were some issues that surfaced that he was dishonest about a few years into the marriage (prompted the 1st set of counseling) that fall into the same bucket of infidelity. Those were never addressed honestly but instead I was told he was either sorry, or it looks bad but really isn't, or I have nothing more I can tell you about XYZ so you'll just have to choose to forgive and forget and move on. I ended up creating a ton of little Boxes I had to put these issues in and ignore them.

5. I think if he can really choose an honest marriage as being a priority over other things and pressures from family or friends, then I think we could have a great marriage and one that I would say neither of us would have an affair. If not, one of us would if we stayed together any longer.

6. There are too many specifics to list. But I am asking for honesty with anything that impacts our marriage. It might be past or current, but I want to know that for the future, we also have that commitment.

Two examples:
1. When we first started dating, we both have friends of the opposite gender & we agreed to share who our past lovers were. If it was someone that still was or would be in contact with him (I applied the same standard to myself), I wanted to be able to trust him if a call, event or something came up involving past friends/lovers. I wanted to be ok with letting him go talk/meet about high school memories with old friends and not need to feel like I needed to be there. If an event was coming up (high school reunion), I would say "I slept with "bob" and he will be at this event.

During our 1st counseling he told me that he had slept with one of the "friends that was a girl" one time when he was single and she was engaged to her now husband. They decided and agreed to never tell anyone else because she was getting married and his best friend had been in love with this girl. He told me he didn't tell me about her because of the pact they had made back then. She was someone I did meet, have meals with, see at events and she did contact him. I would not have been ok with that had I known. Or at least I would not feel so stupid now.

2. On a 4th of July, one of his group of friends was getting together on a boat on a lake. Us and the 3 other couples. One couple drinks a lot, and can say and do things that are inappropriate and puts a LOT of pressure on others to join in on bad behavior. I had to stay late at work. He wanted to go ahead without me and I could join him later. I expressed my concern that last year they all (or all but 1 or 2) went skinny dipping together (we were not there but heard all about it) in the broad daylight public lake. I told him I was nervous it would happen again and I did not want him participating. If I was there with him, we wouldn't join in but I was afraid with the drinking and the pressure, he would not say no. He told me he did not, but he did and lied because he knew it was a poor choice. He blamed some on drinking, the rest on �they pressured me� and I was mad at you for working late. Photos circulated. I was devastated and embarrassed.

On the question of dishonesty in our culture - I feel this is so prevalent because none of our traditional counselors supports it, our families of origin do not because it is the relationships they each have, and in most of the people in our lives (not all but most) they outright state things like You should not tell you wife that, you should not tell your husband that, etc.). Being honest seems like it is no longer the norm. It saddens me but doesn't surprise me in a culture of "me first, I am #1" it comes with the territory I guess.

thinkinitthru66 - Thank you for the hope. Your family stuff sounds too similar to mine. I am willing to work hard, to change anything I do that is a LB. But I need to have two people in this process. I believe there are couples out there that have this and it works. I want that. I won't lie but I am scared to try again, but will because I think he can be a good man. And if he can be, I want it to be with me.

Your statement about privacy in a marriage, thank you for sharing. I think if we can change that, and he can know that it is OK not share with your spouse, we can work on some many other things.

Thanks all. All insight is SO appreciated.

DJMN,

I would have your husband read the dishonesty chapter in lover busters. I too was like him. I would tell little white lies, not because I didnt want to tell my wife because I felt guilty, but because I didnt want to either upset her or worry her. But you end up doing so much more damage when doing this.

I think this chapter could help him out a lot.

Another thing. The past is the past. Do NOT bring it up. To move forard you must forget it. Why you would ever share ex-lover info is beyond me.

One of the most damaging cause to a marriage is past experiences like this. I so wish I would have never had sex until marriage, because then you dont have to worry about stuff like that. Never have thoughts about other partners, experiences to derail you or place comparisons. But the damage is done so it should be forgotten as well.

As for you. I would recommend just putting out there plainly. "I dont need to know what happend in the past, only what is happening now, just be honest with me and we are good."

Something as simple as that could help. being honest is hard for most people, as we spouses typically have a need to protect one an other.

Good luck and God bless.

MNguy

To clarify - I do tell him my insecurities, it is he that won't share his. I have and want to tell him those things (two nights ago I asked him to remove an ex-lover from his facebook friends because I was insecure and uncomfortable with her being connected to him/us). But he would never ask the same of me if he was unhappy with someone on my facebook page. Instead he would stuff it. It has been what I have always done and wanted to do but have only in recent time (last year and a half) started to withdraw.

And the gym discussion actually occurred. He said he was fine with it for both if us (my toning and his high cholesterol) and for us to take the kids. But apparently he has been saying otherwise to my mom - things like "wonder who she is getting fit for, wonder who she is going to the gym for). Never to me. I had no idea. I would have passed a lie detector test that I thought he was supportive of the gym other than the $$$ part in case we didn't use it. I agreed that if we did it, we should both use it and take the kids swimming, etc. He had no objections (again other than if we pay for it, we should use it). How do you discuss or practice a POJA when the other party won't be honest about what their concerns are?

We did register for the online program and have printed hundreds of pages, some read and some yet unread.

And I agree the past is the past but it isn't or wasn;t the past at the time, or now. Not when he sees those people in social settings with or without me. I personally feel it would be dishonest and disrepectful to attend a social function with my husband and sit at a dinner table with another couple without telling him ahead of time that I slept with the other guy. That was all I asked for in return. I don't care he was with some chikc in Europe, but a girl he slept with attended our wedding and I do believe it is respectful to tell or not to bring those people from the past into the present.

I know some people want the past to be the past, but the past makes up a lot of who we are today and especially if those people are not in the past.

Thanks for the post. Much appreciated.

PORH, perhaps?

I've been working through some of the other questionnaires from the website, and the history one includes this kind of information. I have always shared every bit of my sexual history with my H. I'm an incredibly private person and struggle with sharing every little thing about me with my H, but my sexual history is information he is 1000% entitled to, IMHO.

Hey LOG, I lost track of this thread because you changed your name but am glad to see you are getting help with from the Harleys.

The issue of past lovers is a very important issue. This is something that would come under historical honesty. You should know about all former lovers so you can identify any foxes in the hen house. Your instincts are exactly correct on that.

How are things going with the online program? Do you have Kim or Sandy?

Hi ML. Sorry, I did change it...decided to go for something more random and less personally identifiable than my initials and my state.

We did do the online program but I made a decision not to engage in the program with my H after viewing it because his dishonesty is so perverse in our marriage and in his life in general I am unable to have any viable conversation or commitment with him at this time. He will say anything anyone wants to hear, and even in the short time with MB, he lied outright in his initial postings here. So even for me, MB wasn't a safe place to address my relationship.

His lying in our relationship feels so out of control that I decided to handle it like I would with a spouse with an alcohol problem. I had to remove him from my environment so that he could get some help with this before/if I tried again. Being with him has been emotionally and physically exhausting and it started to take a serious toll on my ability to parent, be a boss at my office, and to take care of myself physically.

I support his current attempt to initiate the MB program on his own to address his lying, and he has told me he has his first appointment for phone coaching on Monday. He started medication last week to try and address depression, anxiety and ADD. Hopefully that too will have a positive impact for him. He has stated as well that he is also planning on abstaining from alcohol use and gambling during his work on the lessons. I hope he does because regardless of what happens between us, he will always be the father of my kids and this will only help him create a more meaningful and intimate relationship with them as they grow, and would make it easier to co-parent with one another.

We were assigned Sandy and I do really like her a lot. I am not actively working with her (H is) but should things change for me in this process, I think she is an excellent coach to have and I am grateful to have her.

Thanks for keeping tabs on me. I am pretty disconnected to others right now and it feels nice to have someone thinking about me every once in awhile. So thanks.

I am impressed that you have been able to stay so positive. Its really awesome to see your level of commitment.

I also like how you are not taking any junk or being a doormat, but on the flipside you appear to be being respectful and considerate.

A couple things I am taking away for inspiration.

Sorry I dont feel remotely qualified to give any advice, but encouragement is always free!! Hope your H does well on his issues.

I am sorry to hear your H is still lying. It is a good thing he is working with Dr Harley. We also have Sandy as our coach and think the world of her. She is very smart and very creative.

There is another couple over there in a similar situation. I haven't read them in quite some time but I know the wife was beside herself with frustration over her H's dishonesty. here
Good luck!