Hi LoG,

I am not sure if I will get time to fully respond to your posts, so once again I will pick out the few bits I want to respond to quickly, and then (hopefully) get back to the rest.

Thank you for calling me direct Its nicer than the blunt I usually get LOL. Can you also just call me Lil, long story

MBPoster is a troll. He posts as BA or best advisor and a bunch of other user names. If your H is listening to him, beware. His take on MB is NOT normally the MB way. I think he enjoys getting involved in others life.He certainly has been outed as a stalker on many occasions.He has several other email names he posts under. Contact Justuss if you want more info.

When I mentioned the lying, I was referring to the fact you lied to your H about being on MB which seemed a bit pointless to me since he would obviously know you had posted by simply looking at posting times. I dont particularly think your lying to us. The more someone posts, the more likely we are to see discrepancies.

The thing about MB posters not telling their spouses they post on MB is more related to those posters who's spouses are actively in an affair. The reason for this is so that the wayward spouse doesnt find out what the betrayed spouse is doing to protect themselves and what steps they are taking to break up the affair. This would be the first time I have heard someone say its for couples having marital problems. Certainly I can see no value in it myself. If someone else knows otherwise I am happy to be corrected

As far as I can see from the 2 threads, you have stated very clearly to HBS what your EN's are and he chooses to not follow thru. That is his choice. You cannot control that, only your reaction to it. If you choose D then you choose D. I hope you dont, but thats not really surprising
BTW, I dont hold much for him apologising after the fact or constantly admitting he lies. Confession WITHOUT repentance is just showing off.



I will be away for a few days. I will check when I get back and see if your still here.

Thanks Lil-

I am not sure about other user names. I just know that the person that is emailing him privately and off of MB (I have a copy of a recent email) is also posting publicly on my thread but not on HBS's thread.

Go figure. Do two things done in secret make it honest? Sorry, bad attempt at levity and the two wrong turns...

I am leaving for meetings in 5 minutes so will have to read later tonight.

I sent a copy of the email string to Sandy along with the links to these threads in case she has not been made aware of them. With HBS choosing to go off MB for emailing, she may not know about it. I emailed his parents both the off MB email and the link to both posts. He has stated he wants them to help him with honesty and accountability so I have shared this stuff with them before. Figured I would keep them in the loop.

Gota run. Thanks.

Status Update:

I asked HBS for an evening to talk. He agreed. Never asked about what. I set it up over 10 days ago for last night. Set up a babysitter. I asked to see him at my office (small and I own it so private). He agreed.

Yesterday mid-afternoon we had finished talking about something with work. He brought up the evening, and then in that he stated he did not want to me at my office but at some public place like a coffee shop. We did the "I'd prefer my office as it is private, and I'd prefer the coffee shop". So I said fine. Not what I wanted because I consider these topics something that should have been discussed without random people listening.

We are on instant messaging with each other every day. About 1 or 2 minutes after I hung up I sent and received the following IM:

Lion says:
i am not serving u any legal papers
if that is what u were worried about
HBS says:
no, i wasn't...
Lion says:
why do u not want to meet here?
HBS says:
i'd just prefer not to....
Lion says:
why
HBS says:
i'm not trying to be harsh, but i don't see or feel the
need to explain my reasoning....
Lion says:
fine.
I would prefer mot to meet then.
I will just go home and relieve "the babysitter"

We have issues that we can't avoid talking about. We are not moving back towards each other so I am moving forward with the divorce. I had spoken with a collaborative lawyer for free yesterday because I wanted guidance on what to talk about so we could get to a mediator. We need to discuss the childcare schedule, the house (we can't afford to keep paying the mortgage so we need to start the conversation at least), divorce (lawyers/mediation), boundaries (he is still seeing the kids here at my home but we need to discuss respecting my boundaries in my space or finding him new space that allows him to have the kids there overnight in his own space), and sharing the situation with the rest of everyone else (our kids, his friends that have become my friends, church, the other parents in our son's class that are coming to my house this weekend for a classroom party).

So I called the lawyer back, shared the exchange, and she said she didn't think HBS was going to be able to move ahead without some formal process. So I agreed and signed the retainer last night and called him when I got home ad his car was not in the garage to let him know I had planned on talking to our oldest son tonight about the divorce and would like him to be involved and would wait for him if he wanted to come home. I told him this was one of the topics I wanted to discuss when he decided he didn't want to meet privately but refused to explain why.

I got stall tactics, verbal attacks, claims he needed to research this topic first (we've had 2 months), babbling, threats (if you, I wll), and I kept saying I did not want to have this part of the discussion but to stay focused on discussing this with our 5 year old. I repeated that I would like him to be present but was not going to continue to enagage with him in his style any more. During this he told me that the reason he didn't want to meet at my office was on the advice of some others and Sandy agreed. Might have made a difference, at least it would have been something to talk about. Not sure why this was so important he took the stance that he did in his IM. But it is very typical of what I have been dealing with in my life.

He said he wanted to call some people but he did want to be there and I agreed I would walk to the park with our son and wait for him there. I told our son daddy was coming and we needed to talk and share some things with him

15 minutes later he called asking me what I planned to say. I told him. He replied I will not be a part of that conversation and I won't come. I said that was his choice. Our son and I talked. I think it went well. He's a smart kid and it is pretty amazing how intuitive they are. They know things.

I have replied back to our church that we are divorcing because I have been non-responsive to a committee I have been on and a moms group I had participated in stating what was happening and I was not going to be able to give my time right now.

I have replied back to the wife of one of his friends that had emailed me earlier this week about a summer event and I didn't want to say anything until after I had discussed it with HBS last night but then had to let her know so she could make plans on her own.

I shared my status with the girl I just went on vacation with. She had been an employee of mine for 4 years but we were casual friends" outside of work. She left my employ in March because her life changed when both of her parents were killed in a car accident last fall. It has allowed us to get closer as friends and I now feel it is safe for me to share myself without that employer/employee boundary. It has been very helpful for me to have her to share with. She was very open with me on our vacation and it was so refreshing to have someone (with a face - no offense to the forum) I can open up to. She (and her husband even) have been a respite for me during this time. People I can talk to that just listen and don't try and tell me what I should do based on their own agenda or histories.

I have placed a boundary of safety around myself to try (as best as I can) to not let myself get engaged in the crazy talk and just move forward with the daily pressing needs.

I will add that HBS called me to say he needed some things from the house. I said I would call him once the kids were settled in their rooms so he could do that. I guess while I was doing that, he waited just a bit then sent me a text (that I didn't get because I was up dealing with kids) that he wanted to talk to our son on his own (he told me that in an earlier call and I said not problem at all). Then asked about changing some days in the schedule this and next week. Then ended with "I'm coming over now".

I had not seen the text but I thought I heard something downstairs and that always makes me scared as a woman at home alone with my kids. I called him a little later and said kids were down except daughter so I can move to a different room if he wanted to come over now. He told me he already had, and later I saw the text. That feels so, so, so invasive. Invasive is not even the right word. It is a lack of boundary issue that HBS has shown in our M since the beginning. He calls my female friends telling them his issues with me. He calls to tell my mom things he won't tell his parents. It feels icky.

The trip I just got back from actually he planned without talking to me and called the gal from my office that I had never traveled with or spent any significant time with. He told her he thought I needed a vacation away and decided I should travel with her and suggested Vegas. She thought it was very odd he would call her and plan that like he was. I agreed to the vacation (he's had 4 work/vacations) since our D was born. Me = none. I ended up having a very good time and it really got us very close as friends but the way it was handled is typical in our M but always something that has been difficult for me to deal with.

We shared that we were both really afraid of how the trip was going to go sicne we had never spent that kind of time together before. Lucky for me, we got along great and it deepend my friendship with her and has given me that one person I really needed to have to share things with.

But anyways...all for now.

Lion,

I see the same as other posters on your thread...that you do some identical things that rile you when HBS does them.

You know why he didn't fill out the historical honesty questionnaire...and in an email, could verify it...you refuse to sign the Agreement to work on the marriage.

Instead, you are choosing to divorce. You asked him to move out a few weeks ago. You weren't going to go through with working on the marriage.

So Fred's initial question remains a refrain here...

what is this for? To bash your H 15 ways to Sunday, try to provoke him into disclosures that insure you get a better divorce settlement? Keep him close to humiliate him, punish him for 13 years of work on your part?

I don't get it...because I'm seeing you focus solely on him...and believe that's what you mostly did for 13 years...to tear apart your own marriage. You are half the destruction, Lion. He HAS met many of your ENs and yes, LB'd consistently with Lying. No doubt. Doesn't wipe out everything...and I see your pattern in your actions to parent him, not partner him. Which is about you, not him.

You have deep control issues, which is understandable why you'd pick HBS and fall in love with him...because he has them, also, in opposite ways. And each of you reinforced the others' addiction to acting from fear instead of love.

You hurt. We get that. You've hurt for years and years...and within those years, there were days and months you didn't hurt. And every single day you chose to stay and focus where you had no control.

You will not find your next relationship to be any different, even with MB concepts in your grasp...you haven't created good habits, changed your stuff...you will repeat with three teenagers and a stranger...and end up with someone who lies by omission and commission...blame shifts...someone who uses their fear of you (your disapproval kills them inside) to justify their lies, avoids intimacy and conflict.

Again.

No doubt in my mind. Because YOU didn't change.

And that stranger will not seem to be anything like HBS...and he will be, after a year and a half...and you'll be furious at stranger for duping you...because you don't understand all the ways your DJs dupe yourself.

Nothing in this life is truly justified. You do and not do.

He does and does not.

That's reality. He paid for great advice from expert people...and you paid with him, without the same goal, really.

Why do that to yourself and blame him?

Think about yourself, your choices...six years ago, you discovered how much lying HBS really did...shocked you...rocked your foundation (from what I read) and you got pregnant right after, and again, and again...made him the father of your children for life...

You did that.

He didn't.

You do damage...talking to your DS-5 had to be right when you wanted it to, where you wanted it and how you wanted it done.

No room for parenting...you make yourself the ultimate parent and justify it by pointing at HBS and making it his fault.

I think the deep exhaustion you feel is from your own sickness in your control addiction. I don't believe for a second you want to keep acting in your marriage and your life, from fear. You want to stop, lay it down...and have so deceived yourself for so long, you are laying down your marriage, instead.

Why not make yourself a true plan of redemption? Put off divorcing, move back in together, and work hard at Alanon for six months, so you really can clean out your emotional closet, see where you do exactly what creates fury in you about HBS, and how you can stop your habits and create new ones.

Sign the Agreement for six months...set a schedule for meetings, 20 hours of UA time, predetermined progressive boundary enforcements (including what you do when you react to fear and parent your spouse; when you catch yourself lying to yourself and to HBS)...

Because every time you've blame-shifted to your spouse, you lied. "I wish you hadn't chosen those actions, HBS. I fear embarrassment and humiliation as much as you do. We share that. And because of your choices, you embarrassed and humiliated our marriage at the lake. I get it. I just WISH it didn't happen."

His lying is full of DJs...they are there in every choice of him to lie to you.

Neither of you make it safe for the other to be honest.

Be honest anyway. Focus on the damage you do, Lion...which doesn't make you bad, wrong or the problem in your marriage...

and stop doing the damage.

Think of all the justifications you make every day in your head...where you tell yourself your work doesn't come before the marriage...and it does...that your children don't come before the marriage...and they do...why it's okay to not thoroughly POJA (because he lies anyway) which is doing the exact same thing that HBS does (chooses his actions based on your possible response).

You feel insane because for 13 years you have chosen to do the same thing and expect different results. So has HBS.

Now you can lay it down, spend six months working fully with Sandy and Steve, Kim...and hold yourself accountable, change your life for reals...and have a great marriage.

Be transparent with your H...be that brave. You cut yourself off from intimacy with him (and justified it) and then felt like you were dying from lack of intimacy.

You're not the problem...you're the human.

So is HBS. You have contributed to the problems in the marriage equally...and what you want him most to do, you're least doing yourself.

Align and soar, Lion. You can really do this when you ban justifying for yourself. And you enforce boundaries around yourself.

And I believe God really did put you two together, why you fell in love with each other...because you share more than best friends ever do, in your challenges in this life...to go at it together...once you both lay down your mirrors.

THEN you can really use the MB plans and follow the rules...right now, you guys are too enmeshed...daily, weekly and month goals.

What have you really got to lose? Maybe regain?

LA

To the Forum,

Seven weeks ago to the day, I was invited to this site and this program by my wife, who told me she had embraced it as her future, either with me or her next companion. After lots of reading and investigation, I also embraced it.

Five weeks ago to this day, I came to this forum and posted for the first time, primarily on my failings and my flaws, and asked for guidance, understanding and advice. Both before and since then, I have not been perfect, nor have I ever held myself out to be.

What has happened in the weeks that have has gone a long way toward breaking my soul.

I take significant issue with the �facts� as stated in my wife�s most recent posts. Sandy has suggested that responding to my wife on these issues on this forum will serve no further purpose, and I reluctantly agree. I will not be engaging in bickering, correcting and arguing with her here, which would only further abuse the good will of this forum. But it is not easy to sit and do nothing when you are unfairly attacked as I believe I have been.

I do not plan on posting again on these issues between us, but will watch and respond to posts related to my issues, my work and my recovery. I am continuing to work with Sandy and, through her, Dr. Harley, on the issues I have candidly admitted have contributed to our current situation. I have made and will continue to make the improvements I am striving for in my life.

I ask only that you keep these facts in mind as you consider my wife�s past and future posts, and know that my silence and/or failure to respond should not in any way be taken as agreement with her statements.

HBS
-----------
Me 41
W 39

Married 10 years, together 13

3 Kids: 5, 2 and 1

LorG,

Please read LA's post. Save it and read it again in the future. I believe it will resonate with you sometime.

It did with me.

I could have written your story years ago. My ending is different though. I had an affair. I envy your ability to see things and make choices without doing what I did.

However, my affair made me look at MY shortcomings and MY contributions to our maritial problems. Because, no matter what, nothing justifies having an affair.

One "good" thing that came out of it is that I was forced to look at me and change me. I did something I never thought possible....not in a million years. Sure, I had a million "reasons" but none justify it.

As it turns out, my husband can change. I don't think I would have believed that. I think I would have eventually been where you are. If I hadn't messed up so badly, I think I could have walked away and blamed it all on him.

It is very humbling to make such a mistake and receive forgiveness. It is very humbling to realize that I am not perfect and don't have to be.

I didn't give up control....I lost it completely.

If you can't absorb LA's post now, save it for later.

Please note that while I am writing this...I'm not certain yet if I want my marriage to continue or will ever be "in love" again. I am just letting myself be open to that possibility.

Good luck and God Bless

LA-

You are right on. I am absolutely half the problem. I have a TON of things I would work on. I told HBS I was willing to sign the agreement and work on it but I had one requirement. Yes, I do have this requirement. When I see his lying as an addiction, I can't move forward without having him "clean and sober" and a plan in place (meetings, sponsors, how he plans to address and manage the lies I know he will do). But you are right, I do not want to be his parent any longer. We have discussed this very dynamic over and over again. HBS tells me that he needs me to be his accountability person and I can't because right now, right now, we trigger each other and I don't want to be that person any more. We are different with different people. I am different with different people.

I said I was not willing to sign the agreement without the historical honesty and current plan. I said that and I say it today. I think our M could possibly be salvagable.

But I can't without the two things lildoggie asked me on 5-17-10 regarding what I needed:
lildoggie asked me: What would it take for your H to do that would allow you to be O&H with him again.
My reply: Full historical honesty and his plan for current accountability. No more secrecy.

I do not see that as any different than an alcoholic choosing to get sober and explaining how the spouse knows they are going to keep working on staying that way. It is not advised anyone work on a marriage with an active CD issue present.

HBS has never asked me the above question - what it would take for me to commit to working on the M or to commit to MB. He has never said let's tak about how that would look if he were to do that. I have told him the above but he has refused. He has just refused that he will not share anything unless I agree to the program.

Do you suggest I lie and agree when I don't mean it? I did not want to do that. I would only want him to do the above because he wanted to or decided it was time to stop the cycle.

I have always been willing to sit, quietly, silently with anyone else in the room or on the phone to listen to what HBS has to share on the topics I noted above. I would also accept a letter and would be willing with that in hand to go through it with Sandy, Dr. Harley or anyone else. I would happily sign the agreement and see where it goes.

But I have learned that until or unless HBS committed to the historical honesty and had a plan in place to address it, things do not change.

You have great ideas for him on managing his honesty. He needs that. THAT IS WHAT I WANT TO SEE. No just "I'm working on it". I don't believe him. He would benefit from the public forum and an AA system so that he can get those good ideas. Actions...not words.

You have great insights and ideas. I really appreciate you watching our threads and speaking your mind. And when it is done from a place of compassion, it shows. And I would hope you will keep it up and "adopt" us.

You share ideas on improvement. You suggest all email correspondence includes each other. I would do that. Always have been willing to when it was shared. I wanted all this IN PUBLIC so you or anyone could hit me with a 2x4 or HBS. He emails privately off of MB. That allows him to get information that someone doesn't want run through the MB filter. He has a cell from work but now has been buying pre-paid cell cards for a disposable cell with cash. If he wants to see my cell or text stuff, he can ask or he is authorized to call my provider as he is listed on my account. And I agree 110% that anyone that is suggesting to either one of us to do anything differently is not a friend to any M.

I believe you will find what you are looking for if you keep looking. If he wants to find posters off MB that he feels support his direction, and those who did not find MB work for them, that is fine as they will support that goal. If they saved their M rather than divorced then great as they would likely support that goal.

So what is this for you and Fred have asked....

Today, next year or 15 years after we have divorced...HBS could choose to find a way to share his historical history honestly and share his plan for developing honesty...and I will sit down and listen. And then I would be open to whatever else could come our way. He is the father of my kids and married or divorced that does not change but the way we interact can always be changed.

Thanks for the input.

The agreement to work on it make it safe for him to be honest.

As long as the axe of you bailing on the marriage is out there, it's not safe for him to be honest.

You want him to be honest, but are unwilling to make it safe for him to be honest.

He wants it to be safe for him to be honest, but is unwilling to be honest until you make it safe.

One of you has to go first.

Why not you?

Lionorgazelle:

You said to the question --- What would it take for your H to do that would allow you to be O&H with him again. (Full historical honesty and his plan for current accountability. No more secrecy).

To me it sounds like you know exactly what your husband is not telling you. And you want him to come clean with you. If you do know what it is, just tell him. And then both of you can create a plan for his accountability. Maybe by telling him what it is that you think he is withholding from you will give him an incentive to become honest with you about other things.

Enlightened -
You are right on.
One of us has to go first.
I wish I could be that strong to say it could be me.
I am not that strong any more.
I am very sad to say that.
I won't be me.
Sorry. Really sorry.

registest-

I don't know. If I did, I could deal with it. There is not a lot I don't think I could eal with, if I knew what it was I was dealing with.

I find little things out every day. Found out today he has a pre-paid disposable cell phone. I don't know how long he has been buying them. Not even something I ever thought I would have to even worry about. I have never had a reason to buy one of those things. I guess maybe there is a good reason like for a client or something. I don't know.

There have been big issues in the past and it is the unresolved parts of thise that hang out there. I have many things where the answers I got were "I don't remember" like I don't remember where I was when I bought that bar condom or who I was with. If it was a PA, or the thought of a PA, I can't even try and work to fix it.

I wish I knew...but I don't. That is where I am stuck.

Oh my! Did you say he was buying condoms and couldn't remember. Now that sounds like a big problem.

Yes, I did say that. I referenced it in an earlier post. I was left at the endwith "I do not remember where I was or who I was with when I bought it. But I do remeber that I was buying it for us to use". I can't use condoms. I react.

I believe there is more to that story. But that is all I have. Could it be true. Sure, it could be. I have a hard time believing that he remembered he was buying it for me, but not when or where or with whom. If he did not remember the rest, then I know he was at a bar so I am guessing he had too much to drink.

Either way...

LionOrGazelle: I really think you should attend the counseling sessions with your husband or alone. Then bring up the example of your husband buying condoms. If you guys, do not use condoms during SF in your relationship. And if you guys have not discussed using condoms, then he needs to explain why he is buying them.

Also, how much does your husband drink. If he is abusing alcohol, this may be contributing to his inability to be open and honest with you. He truely may not know what he is doing when he is under the influence of alcohol and it is impairing his judgement. Has your husband tried seeking treatment to stop drinking.

I mentioned the condom issue simply as one example of past deceit that has not been addressed. There are many more. And no, we do not use condoms. I would want to go through those past items, including the condom, in counseling if counseling what what was planned.

Unless or until HBS has a plan in place to be able to be honest when addressing those issues, and has reviewed his historical past with whoever is his accountability person, I can't consider counseling.

In the past he may have 1-2 beers a night. There were times he would have harder alcohol, such as vodka, and it may have been mixed or straight. I have only brought it up recently in that at first I asked him to at least wait until after the kids went to bed to have a beer/drink. And one evening I found a glass of vodka straught in a cup he had just poured back on the bar. He walked away when I came down stairs. So I took it and measured it. It was 5 oz. After that, I asked him to not drink like that when he was the one home alone with the kids (we were separated and he was staying some nights at the house with the kids).

There have been past issues. I do not know that he is an "alcoholic". I do think he has a history of using it to deal with stress, as well as occassional times when he over drinks and can't recall events from the evening. I have never seen him drink during the day. He has never had a DUI.

He has stated to me (either here or in an email to me) that he has stopped drinking and gambling entirely during this process. I have no reason to believe he is lying about the drinking so I would have to assume he has been totally sober since his email to me. I saw one of the gambling sites was "opened" on a day I was out of town. He stated to me in a way in which I believe him that he did not open the site. We have a nanny in our home so she may have opened it on purpose or accidentally, or it was opened accidentally by HBS. Either way, I believe his reply (off MB and by email to me personally).

He attended an Alanon meeting last night. He said it went well. It may be what he needs. If not, it may allow him to consider something such as AA. Other than that, no other treatment sought. I support his decisions to attend anything right now. Anything can only help.

Hi Log,

nothing to add, just wanted to say I am back. So glad to see others are chiming in.

Lil

Thanks Lil'. I can't tell you how much I appreciate you and LA checking back on me. I detach from others to avoid the pain and shame (LA nailed that one).

I am not ready to post more specifics because of the dynamics of my M and MB with HBS.

But I am making changes. I have reached out. It is so hard. I have shared my situation and have found acceptance, support and resources for me without the shame. Just when I think I couldn't feel more yucky about the issues in my M, when I am talking to someone I hear words like "I can relate", or "I understand", or "I didn't know and I am so sorry", or even "did you know my H has been in recovery for XYZ for 15 years?". I didn't know these things...I felt so alone. I have been so afraid to utter the secrets out loud (they become more real for me then too). But now that I have started, the burden I carry is lessoned.

I have started my journey. I am coming out of the shadows.

Please keep me on your watch list.