The spouse who is voicing their complaints......

If a woman gets on here to complain about her H not meeting her need, I tell her whT she MUST do to meet HIS needs.....

If a man gets on her to complain about meeting his W not meeting his needs, I tell him what he MUST do to meet his......

It's that plain and simple......

Those that want to make it more complicated are usually looking for an EXCUSE to not meet the others needs.......

Not2fun

Okay, fine. I'll go first, after he does:)

I gotta get off this thread because it's making that stupid 1980's song "Let's Talk About Sex Baby" run through my head. I have this urge to tease my hair and wear neon.

Bingo!

Then why didn't we have sex on our honeymoon? Because she wasn't in love with me? Then why did she marry me?

There is plenty of mess on both sides of the street. Plenty of women marry men for money and because they think he will be a good father. These women do not love their partner or find him sexually attractive. They lie and pretend during courtship.

The solution is for men not to marry such women. Just as women have to be on the lookout for men "who only want me for my body", men need to be on the lookout for women "who only want me for my wallet". The difficulty is convincing a man who may be (finally) getting regular sex that he should restrain himself and look the gift horse in the mouth and question whether the sex will continue after the ring is on her finger. If this were easy to avoid, there wouldn't be so many jokes about women smiling on their wedding day.

Just as the stories are legion about notches on men's belts and bedposts. Men lie and pretend during courtship as well. Neither gender has the market cornered on deception.

Nor am I saying that this is always intentional. I am sure many women fully expect to continue to desire sex with their husband and are surprised and disappointed when their libido disappears. Just as many men get caught up in their careers and do not intend to neglect their wives, "it just happens". Still, I suspect some spouses on both sides had slightly less than full bona fide intention to continue acting the same way after marriage as they acted before.

That's the danger of marrying someone who isn't in love with you or not creating and maintaining your love in the marriage.

Men: You are only getting sex one of 2 ways

1 paying for it
2 creating and maintaining love with a steady partner

This is interesting. I find myself thinking about what happened to me/us..a lot. In my case, it didn't happen overnight. Certainly not on our honeymoon!!! Things were just fine and dandy. And not immediately thereafter. But I know where things started taking a turn for me and the issue was that I just didn't know how to communicate what I was feeling. I'm not even sure I recognized what I was feeling. When I did try to talk about it, the beginnings of that 'minimizing' lovebuster were there. And then an AO.

Several months before our wedding, I received a job offer that would require a relocation. It also required I drop out of graduate school since I couldn't exactly commute back to complete my course of studies.

I was happy where I was living; I was happy with our lives. I loved going to school. I wasn't happy with my job. I had been at a loss to find a good job since taking a voluntary separation from my previous company instead of an offered relo to another city. So I found another job in the same industry, but I really didn't like it very much. In fact, I eventually quit that job and started to do temp admin work while in grad school. I didn't have to think about the job once leaving at 5PM and the trade-off was worth chucking my very-much-hated job that was in my field.

I didn't want to relocate. I was leery of the new job. It paid big, but I just didn't have a great feeling about the players. To give you an idea, my interview was supposed to consist of a 2.5 hour flight there, the interview and the flight home. Easy, peasy, I'd done this type of thing many times.

The interview last 3 days and took me on a road trip to 4 cities. I wound up doing most of the writing and delivering of the presentations. And yup, I was on the org chart. And yes, it was an edge in salary negotiations.

But I really didn't want the job.

H really wanted to quit his job. He didn't like his boss, he didn't like the company, he wanted to move onto bigger and better things in a bigger city. (oh, if only I had a crystal ball...)

I was young and stupid. I allowed myself to be persuaded by all the talk of how great our lives were going to be in this awesome city, yadda yadda yadda.

Two months before our wedding, I moved down there. He flew down with me as he had an interview lined up and he helped me get set in my temporary apartment.

The job was a nightmare. I was working 15-18 hour days and planning a wedding, trying to rent out both our houses, PLUS find us a place to live within 60 days as that's as long as the company paid lease was on my apartment.

I'd negotiated paid time off for my wedding and honeymoon. Thank God this was in the days before email and blackberry phones. I did get a few fed-x packages and urgent faxes. Ugh.

Looking back, it's a miracle I was able to relax and fully participate in the honeymoon!

We returned from the honeymoon to split up at the airport; me to go to my apartment and him to fly back to the city we were leaving.

It was another 4 months before he officially quit his job and moved to be with me. In the meantime, we visited back and forth on weekends. He claims that he started to notice a difference in me during this time. I used to deny it but looking back, I think I was starting to stew in some resentments but didn't realize it and I was probably starting to emotionally withdraw a bit. It also didn't help that I was sleeping on an air mattress in a totally unfurnished house that we were renting, still having to eat out as I had no fridge (that was coming down with the movers) and no dishes, etc. And the house was not in the city, it was a bit of a commute away so now my 15+ hour days were turning into almost 20. I came home, slept for about 5 hours, got up and went back to work.

When he did finally move, I thought things would be better. We were already feeling the financial pinch and I was looking forward to him working. But first...no, he had to do all the unpacking (the ONLY time in our 22 year marriage with 4 company relo's where he did the unpacking!). Then he had to get everything set up. Then it was Christmas. Then..then...then... Once again, I should have seen a pattern. In the meantime, I was getting stretched thinner at work. Finances were getting tighter. We were living in one of the most awesome places in the country and we had no money to enjoy it!

That's when he started to complain that I wasn't into SF as much as I was when we were dating/right after the wedding. And I tried to tell him what was happening with me, how my stress and the sudden onset of panic attacks had me reeling. I remember asking him to have some patience with me and his angry reply of 'no, you should be hot for me 24/7 like I am for you. I don't understand or accept this.'

And the beginning of me not wanting to share that stuff anymore with him.

So there's the beginning of how his EN for SF came not to be met in the way he wants it met. I've never left him high and dry like some of the stories I read about here. Frequency dropped a bit but anywhere from 1-4x/week was a certainty. What really dropped and he could tell, was my enthusiasm. Remember Annie Hall? That was me. Understandably, he was angry. He could tell I just wasn't all there.

So who is at fault? I can't point the finger at him. I didn't share O&H and draw a boundary around me for his SDs and AOs. I didn't say draw a boundary for the FS.

But the temptation to point the finger at him and say "if only he'd found a job and was able to keep it" (the one he did find only lasted 3 months of the 2 years we were there), "if only I got more DS from him, if he didn't AO", etc. etc. etc. That doesn't do me any good. It just leaves me stewing in more resentment.

Now I'm working on trying to change things...my own behavior for one. I'm fearful it's probably too late for us, though. I wish I had wised up years ago.

So SF really IS currency and women really DO withhold it when they aren't getting what they want. SF is a choice and people are choosing not to do it. This really is what I have thought happens sometimes for some time now.

In a way, aren't *ALL* EN's "currency"?? If the guy (usually the guy, anyway) isn't getting what *he* wants in a relationship, doesn't he withhold conversation and companionship? If whichever one does the DS chores gets upset about something, isn't there a tendency to say "forget it, I'm not doing X if they're not going to appreciate it?"

I think SF gets more attention because of its unique nature (and this has been said many times) that it's not socially acceptable to get that need met by anyone but your spouse, but outside MB-land, you can get your other EN's met by anyone.

That was a overy personal account of your experience.

I feel it can be summarized thusly: You did not feel loved and cherished.
True....you set up some of the circumstances for that to happen, but the fact still remains. You did not feel loved and cherished.



((waving to the men))

Fast Fact: When women do not feel loved & cherished, their nether regions become inaccessible.


If you are an H and you are here and doing MB but your wife is not & you are not getting SF, you need to ask 2 questions:

1) Is my wife healthy?
Does she have any physical or mental conditions which may cause any issues when it comes to sex?
2) Does my wife feel that I truly love and cherish her?
If she does not feel this way, you'll know!

If the answer to # 1 is yes, then you know what you need to do: Get her to an M.D.

If the *HONEST answer to #2 is NO. Then you know what you must do: Meet ENs and eliminate LBs.






*HONEST answer does not include a detailed account of all the stuff you do for her or the fact that she lies and says everything is OK.

How is that different than any other EN? Some spouse's with hold / choose not to do O & H or Conversation for example...


Oh wait - SF is "special" because some men can't function without it.

I think the problem comes when the answer to #2 is yes. Then the response usually seems to be, "You must be wrong about #2, then, because if you were right she'd want SF." It's like a big circle.

I guess I was shipped here by aliens. My DH and I could get into an argument (which hasn't happened for awhile) and an hour later if he reached for me, I'd still want him. He could sit at his computer working all evening, and at bedtime, if he smiled at me when I kissed him good night, I might jump him. If I hadn't wanted to have a lot of regular sex, I would not have gotten married. I was a 26 year old virgin, and I would have just remained a virgin so I wouldn't know what I was missing.

It is refusal to believe what some of the posters (men and women) tell them.

Are the women who are ambivalent about SF lying to their husbands about loving them and being happy?

Are the men who describe themselves as being attentive to all ENs and their wives either not being responsive, or really appreciating it but still not caring about SF, just lying about their situations?

Or are some people making these disrespectful judgements of the facts as presented, in order to dismiss situations they cannot explain or justify, to simplify things so they fit into a few neat categories (which probably do describe 90% of the cases, but not these)?

I bolded some of this response because it leap out at me....I strongly suspect this is my husbands objection to MB teachings....he doesn't like the idea of being a sterotypical male and labeling him as one just natural causes him to rebel against this.

Also, he has made a point on several occassion to say "I hate how Dr.H says this about males"...so I know I have him straight on this....and I suspect even if it is true that his need for SF is #1 he will not admit that....instead he says only if your "16yrs old is SF that improtant"....so he sees it as immature to state it is a top EN for a man PLUS I strongly suspect he also views it as a WEAKNESS and I can tell you my spouse HATES anything that even resembles weakness.....in himself or others....we can't even watch a commerical and he will comment on how much he HATES it based on the woman in it showing fear of a break in (it's for a securtiy system)....I have posted about this before....he has come down hard on me for showing what he feels is a weakness....like saying "I am afraid" that will set him off in a nano second....we had one of your most pivotal moments around just this...If I even remember it I get so upset STILL.

So Mr Shorty.....I don't know if your like my H or not but your post sure rang some bells for me....as mine says SF isn't in the top EN's....and he is rejecting most all MB teaching and using this as a strong basis along with other things.

I believe at this moment he is telling himself this lie and me also....WHY? I have ponder it for so long now....we have SF....he certainly is into and enjoying it and so am I....SO why does he still say this? I guess it is that he precieves it to be a sign of weakness to say SF is a top EN....in fact it's so bad for him that he can't/won't fill out his EN's questionaire for me....he has danced around that for a good month or more now....and I get the same answer...."there must be more EN'S TO CHOOSE FROM...this can't be it....it's not this limited or simple"....I really am convinced I have FINALLY got his number! It's a denial of truth to others and self due to a FEAR of being precieved as weak....maybe even that if he were to tell me his needs I might then gain power and use it against him....so by saying SF means nothing or is like #15 on his list then he takes the ONE thing that only I as his wife can possibly fulfill and nullifies it to nothing....in essence "I don't need you"....and believe me he has convinced me that he doesn't....and YES I have shared it with him...that I don't feel needed by him for anything.

Reading that article on another thread called "Get the Angries Out" really opened my eyes and then reading this topic and Mr.Shorty answer just made it all click....not one other male poster here on this topic brought this up....only one....the odd one of the bunch as far as I can tell....all others are free of fear of admitting that SF is a TOP EN for them....I learned something today....my situation if much worse then I had imagined....I am dealing with passive/aggresive personality type here and MBing my butt off most likey will result in NO results of change.

You have a valid point about some men not wanting to admit SF as such a high need, thinking 'well, that's how a 16 yr old thinks'. Then again, for many men (such as my husband), SF and Affection are closely intertwined and he needs both.

Then again, he ranked SF #6, but when he answered the question about "how often would you like this need met", he answered "every day or more". LOL

So I think it's a wee bit higher than #6.

......if it makes ya all feel better, my H thinks that PA and SF are one in the same, because in HIS mind, if he ain't attracted to her, he certainly isn't going to want to do her....

(guess which EN is his #1..... ;))


not2fun

Quick story here....

My sister told me this story not too long ago....

Our Grandparents were always "snow birds". Living here in the midwest, they would travel to Florida every year for the winter. The owned their own condo down there as well as some rental properties. Many years ago, they finally decided to move down there permanently (we knew this was always the plan eventually......) and they came back to sell their house and whatever belongings they didn't want. Us kids were invited to come over and see what was left that we would want before the big sale. Well, my sister and Grandma were in the back bedroom going through some things, and my Grandma said..."I see your H has gained some weight since we last saw him..."

My sister chuckled a bit, and admitted, "Yeah, he's put on a few pounds....." to which Grandma replied....

"Well, you guys must not be having enough sex..."

My sister, quite embarrassed, "Why would you say that?"

To which my Grandma said, "It is a well-known fact dear, that when a man gets married and gets fat, it means he is not having enough sex....you need to have more sex with him".....

Well, after she told me this story, I just laughed and laughed...My sister asked what was so funny.....I told her....

"Well, in all the years when Grandpa was alive, I cannot EVER remember him being fat!!!!!!"...... "and, remember, Grandma was the BEST cook EVER....".......

not2fun

I think this is common. Men know how important SF is to them and will admit to wanting SF daily or more, but when asked to rank it with things like Admiration, Affection, Conversation etc they feel "bad" when they rank it first. Society and women have made such a big deal out of "men only want sex" that some men have been made to feel like cavemen when they admit how important SF is in thier relationship. They don't want to make thier wives feel like SF is the only thing they want and they don't want to have to fight about "that's all you think about".

Yes some men take it too far and want SF just because of the physical aspect and "getting off". But I believe that many men want more SF, but are afraid to ask for it or rank it as important as it really is for fear of being labeled or looked at badly.

And this opinion is coming from a woman who lived with a man who only wanted sex for the sex and made no bones about it. But I know not all men are like that...found one who isn't actually and couldn't be happier.

here's the link for that article I mentioned in my post:

Get The Angries Out

"Set firm limits for yourself. Stick to them like glue. State them repeatedly. Use �I messages' to share feelings of disappointment. Don't protect him from your unhappy feelings. Accept no excuses when he says he couldn't help it. Tell him that it is a choice he made. Tell him how his behavior injures or affects others. Ask him if he would like to be treated this way. When he says he forgot, point out that he remembers things that are important to him. Ask him how he would feel if you forgot to do things important to him."

This is the exact behavior my spouse does in the article....he always says I forgot and I have responded to him just like it says here...kinda creepy. He has admitted he wouldn't like it if I started not telling him I was going away for weekend trips....3 days trips...4 day trips....and 5day trips....like he does to me....I have pointed out his IB as hurting me deeply and he agrees...like the passive/aggressive type does BUT of course he doesn't change the "bad habit" he simply doesn't tell me AT ALL what his plans are and then just springs it on me say Friday at 4pm...if I say anything about him NOT going then he huffs around and gets his things all packed and LEAVES...no discussion and funny how his memory seems to have faded!

This article was so eye opening.....and also it has depressed me deeply....most of the men here are at least HONEST about their needs...and see no shame in saying they need SF or A or whatever....unless my spouse does this and I can't do anything to make him...even meeting what I am guessing are his top EN's leaves me at a disadvantage that I can't ever truly hope for change.

As long as he sees that a MAN HAVING OR ADMITTING TO HAVING ANY NEEDS as a weakness we are stuck....like the hamster on the wheel...going nowhere.

I buy that and have done that for over a year+. Results, the SF didn�t improve. As a matter of fact. while we have sex with less conflict about why and when, the more I do (very conservative & basic BTW) the less my W does.

ChrisInNOVA, some women think sex is just for mens� pleasure and they (women) are providing a one sided service. My w thinks having sex is waste of time and effort.

Unless she doesn�t see the need for SF, doesn�t want to put any effort in to her own SF, thinks men only want a warm hole to get off in, she would rather go to sleep, gets more pleasure petting the cat, and/or would rather be shopping for clothing or appliances, the SF issue has little chance of changing.

I for one don�t like to feel like I am pressuring my W for SF or I am making her do something she doesn�t enjoy very much. A source outside Marriage Builders tells me I am a whimp for considering my W�s feelings and inactions so much and I should just go for what I want, take the lead and she will follow. It suggest men in situations like mine and others like Retread (I picked on him because I respect his advice and know a little about his situation) just need to take on more of a �Bad Boy image� and ignore most of out low drive W�s complaints/issues and she will eventually follow our lead or leave, which will solve problem, the lack of SF.

The common sense approach would for men to read, and practice the advice on the No More Mr Nice Guy forum.
http://nomoremrniceguy.com/forums/index.php

I want both but my W is still in the �men think with their little head� and any hole will do for most men.

One poster wrote if a woman gets satisfaction and pleasure from SF, she will be willing to engage in SF. My W tells me she feels numb sexually and no matter what she does, which is she does almost nothing that I can see and has turned down any suggestions or help from me.

It wasn�t this way when she wanted to live together. It wasn�t this way when she wanted to get M. It wasn�t this way when she wanted to get PG.

She likes the attention, back and foot rube I give her and would like them even better if sex was not part of the encounter. To her credit she said she knows sex is important to me so she is willing to have sex if it isn�t more often than she thinks is necessary. She has plenty of free time (retired) during the day to sleep but she is still tired most of the time.

Another thing some posters ask, �are you eliminating �ALL� of the LB? I don�t think most people can say they have eliminated �ALL� of the LB because as soon as I eliminate on LB, my W comes up with well that is better but still not perfect, or something else takes its place. More hoops, higher hurdles.

Question:
So if there are still some minor LB, no one gets what they want? I see the model of the giver and taker. What is missing in Harleys model is the trader or deal maker which in a non-completive world where the goal is for a win-win outcome for both parties.

I wish most of what lurioosi2 writes would be in/on the minds of the lower drive spouse. It would eliminate most of the posters here feeling like they are in a no-win situation.

The trick is to do something and see if it works.


That is so true in my circle of friends

Lou

hi gemstone - I cant say whether this IS the case or not of course, but I CAN relate to this though. There are two reasons why I've longed to be rid of my libido. the major one is to end this never ending frustration. To just be done with it.(But its like a starving person saying - "I wish I could just be done with hunger. To just be done with it.") But the second though smaller part of it is, that part of me resents the power she has in this area. She can have sex whenever she wants. Anytime at all. Not that she cares about this......and THAT too is galling. My #1 fantasy, to have a spouse that desires me as much as I desire them....(actually my desire for her is 1000X greater) is what she HAS. Of course, this to her is an irrelevancy. Pearls before swine.

Part of me longs to say in response "I don't need you"

I do though....and I love my wife. I don't want to say "I don't need you" ....but part of me does.


...its EASY for us to admit it here anonymously to anonymous strangers. Doesn't take me any courage at all.

I mean, my wife knows that SF is a top need of mine. It took a long time to actually tell her this verbally - that's hard to do for many reasons, but admitting it here......not so much. : )

I'm sorry its so frustrating.

LS