Gentlemen, your wife needs to be on board with the marriage builders program. Until you truly understand why meeting top ENs are so important, it's easy for some women to put SF as the 15th item on a 10 item list.

In other cases (people like me who have second homes in snit-ville), it's easy to say "the heck with *that*, I'm too ticked off" instead of reaching out and trying to move past that snit.

In still other cases it *is* a medical issue. Thyroid deficiency is VASTLY underdiagnosed; most doctors do not understand it, and it affects 10 times as many women as men and it WILL affect sex drive. According to some of the literature I've read, it's one of the primary reasons so many women lose their sex drive after the kids are born. Pregnancy really messes with your thyroid. And it's not constant. Thyroid can be up and down, meaning that months can go by with a tired, draggy wife and all of a sudden that gland has a burst of energy and your wife is all over you.

If you think you are both following MB..TRULY following MB and you still have an issue, find an endocrinologist who knows what he/she is doing and encourage her to go in and get checked.

I've been thinking along these very lines, and have started to post to this thread half a dozen times but canceled out every time. I think this is where Harley missed the mark in his article. Unless and until wives understand and accept that SF is a valid EN, and may be very high on their husband's list, they will feel safe in ignoring it or "getting to it later".

Yes, men absolutely need to do their due diligence - good hygiene, affection, conversation, not going for the goodies right away, and making it a pleasurable experience for the wife. But the wife has some due diligence of her own to do - relax, be receptive to the idea of SF, save some time and energy for it...

It can get better if both spouses follow the program. Our SF life isn't quite where I'd like it to be, but I accept that my W is now acting in good faith and we're moving in the right direction.

Because I am a woman, I have heard LOTS of perspective on why women get all annoyed at their H's for wanting SF all the time. I just sit there and sip my tea while they complain. And sometimes I do wonder, if they could get inside the mind and emotions of someone who LONGS for that connection, who hopes for it, only to be told no - verbally or non-verbally - again. Things are getting better for us, but I wish sometimes I could let people inside my heart so they could rech out and touch what it feels like to be rejected - because it is rejection. Just because I wasn't good enough for long enough. It physically hurts - my arms would ache because they felt empty, it was hard to breathe because my heart felt crushed. I quit crying after awhile because it was too sad to cry over. That is what going without your top SF need met feels like. Like I said, it's getting better for us, but to be honest, it will take awhile before I can completely "let go" of the fear that it won't last.

OurHouse,

What you said about the thyroid is very true. A lot of women and men who have a medical cause for their mild depression are in denial about even having negative feelings. They don't want to believe that it could be "their fault", for having a medical condition. They avoid getting tested for hypothyroidism, or low testosterone, or other things.

Even after major events like childbirth and death of a parent, which everyone should be aware of as sources of emotional distress, many people refuse to even consider that their general outlook on life has changed. If they feel sad or uncaring, well, their spouse must be the cause.

If and when you finally do learn that you have a medical cause for your negative view of life, or come to terms with some past emotional trauma that wrecked your attitude, you have to let go of that, and you have to look back at all the past years and undo the bad attitudes and DJs you had about other people, in order to live in the present.

Even if your negative attitude was caused by your spouse not meeting your ENs 20 years ago, or heaping LBs on you way back when, if they have changed now, admit their mistakes, and apologize, you have to be able to accept the apologies, accept their admissions, and accept their changes for the better. That means letting go of bad attitudes which are just residue, and not part of what is happening now.

I hear you luri. I was there for years.


That's my challenge now. Wondering where all this was 12 years ago, when we were newly married and didn't have kids. Wondering if I made a mistake staying married to her. Wondering if she really has a headache when she turns me down. Angry that we'll never get those young, childfree years back.

I'm working to retrain my brain to not automatically go to those places, where I hold the past against her and question her motives. Her meeting my SF need goes a long way towards that goal...I'm really trying to focus on present behavior, not past neglect and hurts. Part of why I stayed off this thread so long.

Well which one is it?????......

Both. Plenty of men are selfish pigs. Plenty of women are averse to sex regardless of how well their husband treats them. Even Dr. Harley admits this. He says that sometimes women become more interested in sex when their ENs are met and their husbands refrain from LBs. Sometimes they don't. When the women remain averse to sex, the men often decide to just suck it up and deal. Especially when there are minor children involved. Because divorce for men with minor children stinks if the guy desires to spend time with his kids.

There is no fabulous answer for this. Much depends on pervasive education that conservative members of society will balk at providing publicly. Discussions of human sexuality and brain chemistry. Why many humans, especially women, become averse to sex within long term relationships when the "new relationship energy" wears off.

Another big piece is to embark on a relentless campaign to eliminate rape and child abuse. The statistics on the percentage of women who are raped or abused is horrific. This undoubtedly feeds into the substantial portion of women who find themselves averse to sex.

Human biology indicates that this issue will remain a problem. The typical man wants more sex than does the typical woman. So this will frequently be a source of comflict. The extent of the conflict does not have to be as bad as it is today. There are things we can do on the public health level to reduce the future incidence. But those efforts have no impact on particular couples who find themselves in conflict today.

not2fun, just because I don't think a wife's lack of desire is always her husband's fault, doesn't mean I completely dismiss the husband's part in it. Like holding said, many men are pigs and you can understand why their wives can't stand to be touched by them.

With other men, though, it's not that simple. It's why Dr. Harley acknowledges and discusses sexual aversion-that's not ALL on the husband. The wife has some work of her own to do as well. It's true that when the husband is the only one posting on this site, we can only tell him what he can do on his end (learn about and fulfill her ENs) but after that, again like another poster said, the W has to let go of her baggage, including forgiving the H for falling short in the EN area. Yes, the H has little control or say in whether the W chooses to do that, but is it unfair for him to want it?

Then there is the case where the wife (or husband) is having their ENs met with no LBs, and is quite satisfied with the marriage. They have no aversion to sex, and actually enjoy it, but never initiate it, and usually have something more important to do, so they reject their spouse 95% of the time.

That seems tougher to change than anything, because the EN and LB situations are already where they should be. What else is there to do?

exactly. My wife has many times literally said "That was heaven on Earth!" but then she will subsequently refuse sex for 3-5 weeks.
After a day of arm in arm walks, flowers, dinner out after watching a musical at a local playhouse, she has told me, "That was a Perfect Day!" I make it known that I'd like to take things further and she will most often push me away with a smile (She likes to be desired) "Oh, I'm pretty tired" and she happily goes to bed smiling. After she's asleep, I get in the car, buy some chocolate milk, some pork rinds, listen to hard rock Christian Music and drive the Southern California freeways for three hours wiping away tears of frustration. That's a typical valentines Day for us.

I'll be honest. I don't try all that hard to meet her ENs anymore. At least not like I used to. She and I are still very good friends and we still spend a lot of time in conversation(nightly) and I'm still affectionate with her(we walk hand in hand everywhere. Still snuggle in bed. Cuddle on the couch. backrubs/footrubs etc - although this is difficult when you've not had sex in a month - she gets a lot more affection from me AFTER we've had sex because I can handle non-sexual touch without anger for a few days after.

But I did try very hard for almost ten years. I honestly can't say I'm interested to try for ANOTHER ten years just to prove it.

I was VERY VERY romantic. More romantic than anyone I'd ever even heard of. (I'm sure there are those even more than me but I really did try for almost a decade) I kept her in live roses once for two years. Poetry. gifts. Love notes. Date nights for years - (we still have weekly date night.) I wrote songs about her and sang them to her. Gifts in the car. Love notes left for her whenever I thought of it. Id make up fun stories to entertain her on long drives. Weekends away. We still walk hand in hand everywhere. We still cuddle on the couch(when I can stand it) She LOVES to be affectionate. She even loves sex - as long as its on HER 3-5 week schedule and as long as there is almost NO effort for her. Its almost like sex, to her, should just flow and require no accommodation of schedule or action or effort otherwise its too much bother, even if she loves it while "in the act" as it were. It should never supplant any other activity. It should never be on the "agenda" and it should never usurp anything else on the agenda. Otherwise it just isn't "romantic". She doesn't SAY this, its just how it works out. She HAS said that scheduling sex isn't "romantic"

In 8 years of regular scheduled weekly Date Nights, I believe we've had sex on date night twice. (I can only remember once but I think the # is 2) Valentines Day? Never. Birthdays - has never happened. That wouldn't be romantic because that would be doing it for a REASON, and that isn't romantic.

Anyway, I'm just here sharing a perspective. It isn't always aversion and it isn't always a lack of ENs being met. heck, when I was working my HARDEST to be the most romantic husband I could be, was the driest time in our marriage. We averaged sex once every 5 weeks. It wasn't once a month. It was always 4.5 - 5.5 weeks. I finally just lost heart, and so we have a low level, low passion marriage. A "comfortable"(for her) marriage. Like I said. She is a self described happily married woman. I'm not making this up. In the last couple of months she has told me two or three times "I love being married to you LS!" I just say "Thank You" and change the subject.

(Anyway, right now I'm just gleaning from MB and sharing perspectives from where I sit. I dont give advice here as I'm not qualified. I have 2000+ posts on another marriage website, but I'm kind of checking out MB right now. Hope that's OK.)

LS,
Since your wife thinks things are just peachy, and you don't, but you are getting along fabulously, what if you tried Radical Honesty?

"Honey, we are getting along really well, and I sure do love you, (etc, etc), but our relationship is losing its passion every year. I don't think I can go on much longer like this. I would like for us to try to find a marriage counselor, or program, where we can try to work this out before it it too late, and I just give up."

...only every 5 weeks. (sigh)

I hear you. I'm sorry. Some folks have it a lot worse without a doubt.

I hope this doesn't sound like I am bashing or anything, but I think sometimes the spouse with less desire just needs to look in the mirror and say, "I don't care as much about sf as my W/H, and it's hurting them. I don't want to hurt the person to whom I said till death do us part. So even though it seems unnatural right now, I am going to initiate (insert frequency here). MB says I should be the source of my spouse's happiness, and this will make them happy. This is my side of the street, and I am going to work on it." Unless there is an aversion or an issue with abuse, that seems to me to be a matter of "want to." If I can decide I am going to talk about deep things when it's hard or clean the floors when I am not in the mood, then I know it has to be possible to make a decision about SF.

Here's the thing, this thread is SIX pages long already, and nearly every single reply has been centered around a wife's hormone deficiency, her aversion to sex for what-ever reason, and how women just don't understand WHY men need sex.....which quite honestly, IF you re-read that article, wasn't the points Dr. H was making. Yes, he acknowledges those other issue's, but he didn't concentrate on them. Which, leads me to believe, by the responses on I'm reading on here, that its much EASIER to blame the woman and her hormones (which, BTW, is so frusterating as a woman to hear....HOWEVER, I will come back and comment on this this afternoon after work....), her aversion to sex, ect......

Sorry, but I don't see the men on here taking responsibilty for their part, their side of the street, ect......

not2fun

You could just be a "nice guy"...try this link and look for the book...it could help you...

no more mr. nice guy

On another forum, there is a discussion going on about civil disobedience. One of the points brought up was that sometimes there is a legitimate reason to practice civil disobedience. But, when you do, don't be surpirsed if you go to jail.

If DH doesn't meet my EN's or doesn't meet them to my satisfaction, I am within my rights to be unhappy, to be disappointed, to not meet his EN's. But if I choose to do that, I don't need to be surpirsed when my M gets worse.

To be more plain, my DH can decide not to meet my SF need based on how I have fallen short. But when he does that, our M is going to get worse, not better. Even if he has just cause to refuse to meet the need that only he can, it will not help our M.

It is not a matter of "men needing sex". Marriage needs passion, and that includes a healthy sexual relationship between man and wife. At some point, the lack of sexual intimacy leads to a reduction in intimate conversation and in all other demonstrations of affection, from both directions. They just become roommates.

Yes, Dr. Harley is right about meeting ENs and stopping LBs. But there is more to it than that, and a lot of men who avoid LBs altogether and conscientiously meet ENs have wives who just aren't passionate, who don't proactively do anything to encourage their husbands and to make them feel loved.

It was the women who mentioned thyroid and hormone problems. I happen to think you need to look into everything, and those are very real, and very powerful influences which women (and men) try to deny, because those cannot be blamed on anyone else.

You noticed that too eh?

This topic has been discussed ad nauseum ...ad infinitum...and fried and re-fried. It always takes the same turn: The men go 'round and 'round about how something is wrong with women and only briefly acknowledge the part that they play in this equation. The hormone-thyroid-vaginosis issues are RARE and treatable.

What is NOT rare is men who are not meeting their wife's ENs.

What is NOT rare is men who feel they should get SF before attempting to meet their wife's ENs. One of these jokers said they just couldn't find it within themselves to meet their spouse's ENs without SF for themsleves. What do you think Dr. H would say to a statement like that? I am comfortable predicting that he would call BS on it...yet the men here basically co-signed the sentiment.








This is a universal truth: A woman who is in love doesn't try to avoid sex.














































A woman who is in love doesn't try to avoid sex.




































































A woman who is in love doesn't try to avoid sex.

So who goes first?