I think Chris has taken a close to universal truth in one direction and made it reciprocal, when it really isn't. That is, I agree that most women who are not in love will try to avoid sex. But that does not imply that a woman in love will seek sex or even refrain from avoiding it.

Just as the typical man who is not in love with his wife will flat out refuse to have an hour long discussion of all the gossip involving every woman who lives within a 10 mile radius. That does not imply that a man who is in love will sit still for it, either.

Flattening the mountain makes it much easier to roll the boulder. But it doesn't mean the rock will roll itself. Many people will continue to view the task as requiring effort. Not as much. But still perhaps more than they are willing to expend.

Or as Dr. Harley would say, not everyone is a Buyer. Some are renters or Freeloaders. Applying the MB system makes a person into the most attractive "merchandise" they can be. It doesn't turn every spouse into a Buyer. You may turn yourself into a Ferrari. And your spouse may not want to pay for the maintenance. You may turn yourself into a Prius and get great gas mileage. Your spouse may want an SUV. That doesn't mean it wasn't worth taking yourself into the shop for a tuneup. Just means you might still have to go back to the showroom floor seeking another Buyer.

Wow. Either I'm the Other-Man or YOU are. We are married to the same woman.

Backrubs/footrubs are her #1 request over the last 18 years. Those are relaxing. Backrubs that go "farther" are not generally welcome. Sex is NOT relaxing. She actually LOVES sex once a month or less as long as it doesn't take long, doesn't take any effort and doesn't usurp any other activity and is EXACTLY what we did before. no variety.

I agree. Very well said.

Not all men think of "getting" SF just for themselves.
It makes them feel loved, and they use it to try to make their wives feel loved. When their wives don't see it that way, the men cannot understand it.

If the wife sees SF as something she "gives" to a husband who "gets" ( Giver and Taker),it can be a problem - but even more so when she incorrectly sees the situation (reads his mind) differently than what it really is.

On a second point, about the men rating SF as #5 or #6, but saying they would prefer it once a day.... women do a similar thing. More than once, I have heard of couples going to a marriage counselor who interviews them separately at first, then compares what they said. The man would say they made love 4 or 5 times a year. The woman would say once or twice a week. Big reality gap, there. And the truth was often not halfway in between the two perceptions.

that is a VERY DANGEROUS analogy..........

Not at all very helpful nor is it Marriage Building material.....

Very dangerous indeed.......

The first time I sought out MB (from a random search), I wasn't a happy gal looking to smooth off the rough edges. I was desperate. It was actually a couple of years before D-Day, right after I read HNHN. I was feeling at the end of my rope. I didn't join or post then, just read. I read (and admittedly this was over-simplified) that if I did everything right, my H would want me. So that's what I did - albeit with a lot of misunderstanding. I cleaned and cooked from scratch and bit my tongue every time I flt moody and gave him foot massages and bought pretty gowns and watched his favorite TV shows. And nothing happened. Now, that does not men MB doesn't work. It didn't understand the whole picture. But my point is that perhaps one reason men (or women) who come here and desperately ask for help and vent about SF (or anything else) seem so short on patient and long on frustration because they are already about done in before they get here. I mean, most people don't go to the doctor when they are well. They go when they are sick, and when they do, they don't want the doctor to say, "Be a good patient for the next six months, and if you are good enough, I'll write you a prescription."

If I could take every person I know back 6 years and let them climb inside my head and heart on that anniversary, three months after I started my "plan A," and feel what I felt after a home cooked dinner by candles, a spotless house, and a foot massage, only to have H just give me a peck and go to bed.......I don't think anyone would have the heart to turn a blind eye to the need of SF again, ever.

I think its because THAT part of MB is stuff we men have heard all of our lives. We need to communicate more. we need to be more romantic. We need to express our feelings to our wives deeply. We need to be gentle. Not quick to anger. Dont try to fix, just listen and validate feelings. She just wants to be heard. She wants your support and protection. She wants you to love her for more than her body. She wants your love no matter what. She wants to know you are thinking about her. She wants you to seek her out. She wants you pursue her but non sexually. She wants non sexual touch. She wants you to be her friend.....

Its all true. We need to work to meet the ENs of our wives.
At least part of this thread has been about expressing the frustration when, with all of the effort in THAT direction, our own actual ENs are not ever even attempted to be met.
My was very happy in our marriage and very happy with our romance and I was starving for sex.

I WISH all it took was meeting my wife's ENs. At least then I'd have a game plan. I HAD a game plan. between about 8-12 years I started to realize that it WASN'T me. It wasn't MY lack. It didn't matter WHAT I did. She was happy. She returns HER ENs right back to me. If was a woman, I'd be happy too, but I'm NOT a woman. I've had my fill of romance and conversation. I don't mean I don't want it, but I want it in the context of a sexual relationship - A REAL marriage, not just a freindship. I even need it but its not #1. She applied HER EN list onto me and tries to meet it despite talking to her about it. She can't hear it somehow....or doesn't want to hear it....or perhaps can't comprehend it.

~ Just adding - I let some frustration show in the writing of my posts because that is part of what I'm trying to convey, but I'm NOT frustrated or angry with you not2fun or anyone here at all. Discussing this stuff is what forums are for. I like talking this stuff out here and I'm enjoying the conversation : )

I respectfully disagree with the universality of this. I've read too many posts from women in the "Lack of Desire" forum on themarriagebed, who describe their husbands and marriages as wonderful except that they have no desire for sex. they just can't get into it. They just have no energy for it. They just don't see what the big deal is.

You know, maybe you are right about the majority. Maybe the majority of women who are in love, wouldn't avoid sex. Maybe that's true. Perhaps its the guys who have wives that are in the minority that gravitate to these sites...like "Hey, I've been a good husband and STILL I don't have a sex life!"

Noone is claiming perfection but perfection shouldn't be the requirement before one has a sex life.

I guess all were saying is this: That there is an analog to the common female complaint "He gets all the sex he wants and STILL he doesn't spend time with me OUTSIDE the bedroom."
(Is the sex perfect and exactly as much as he wants? - NO)

The analog that is not often talked about is this:
"She gets all the Romance and conversation that she wants and STILL almost never wants to have sex"
(Is the romance and conversation perfect and exactly as much as she wants? - NO)

~ My caveat - I'm enjoying this conversation. Thanks for talking and sharing. : )

Wow! These highlighted prejudiced perceptions are so sad. The women who were socialized to believe this sexist crap had a real number done on their heads. What a waste of a woman's sexuality.


With that kind of belief set, no wonder the wife feels numb sexually. If she truly believes this way, she must feel like she is only an object, not a person, when having sex. In some ways, she isn't giving "consent" based on her being a person, but rather an available "hole". It's almost as if she's allowing her "self" to be "used" for sex.

Yuck! There's just something fundamentally wrong with that.

Honestly, I think Dr Harley is wrong about men craving sex more than women. Being a female, I believe that if a woman can embrace her sexuality, learn what feels good to her body, overcome the fears that come with being a female (pregnancy, vulnerability, etc) and toss out the psychobabble that she's socialized to believe about sex/women/men/good girls, that self-actualized woman will want and expect SF as much, if not more, than a man.


Sorry men, but you do the females in your life a disservice when you tell them as girls not to put out to any guy who says the "love" word. We teach our girls to look for and expect certain actions and attitudes from their male partners before having sex. Girls are socialized to make that list of requirements for her partner to do and check it twice before sharing her body.

We set up our sons to go without SF in M because of the way we socialize our daughters regarding sexual activity.

All these deprived husbands because their wives were taught to deprive *themselves* of their sexuality and SF. Sad.

Maybe the real issue is about the wife being in touch with her sexuality. But many women are afraid to even go there.

It's been said many times, sex is 90% between the ears. kwim?

RareMamaJewel is right. A lot of it is the heads of the women. It is not however meant as torture the way you see it. Dr. Harley says in the SF chapter of HNHN that women must be TAUGHT how to enjoy SF, they do not know what to do or what they want instinctively the way that men do. If your W is healthy, you are meeting her EN and eliminating LB's maybe the problem is that she is not satisfied with the sex itself. Maybe thats on you if you have gotten lazy about lovemaking (or are too burnt out after the foot massages etc to give your all to the foreplay she NEEDS) or may be that she has no clue what she wants or how to tell you she just knows that at the end of it she isnt really happy with the experience.

Sure she says she is but that is because she doesnt think she really enjoys sex, she thinks that she is broken somehow, that she just doesnt like it. It's socialization, women are not taught to really explore what works for them and their own sexuality, and they are taught not to complain about a mans sexual performance. It could be simple, maybe she needs more foreplay and doesnt want to offend you by asking, maybe she has thoughts or fantasies that she thinks would be a turn off for you. Maybe she is just bored and wants to shake things up but doesnt think you would be interested or you would be offended that what you are doing isnt cutting it for her.

If all else fails buy a book on the arts of sensual lovemaking and share it with her, get inside her mind on the subject and learn what she likes (help her learn what she likes). And please dont say that you already know, maybe you do but what have you got to lose if you already arent getting any? Remember too that her sexual needs and interests can change over time, so what you thought you knew may not be true any more.

It may take time to convince a wife that believes that she cannot really enjoy SF that she can. It will take a lot of positive encouragement. If you react well when she tells you a fantasy she has (even if its not to your particular taste) or encourage her when she takes the first few steps towards loosening her inhibitions then her sex drive should go up as she begins to enjoy SF more. Once she learns she can be satisfied and happy with SF, she will desire it more. I know because I used to be one of those women that "just didnt enjoy sex", until I met my H. He helped me to learn what I like and what I want and now my need for SF is higher than his is.

Not saying this is the problem for all the H's with W's who are not interested in SF but it may be the answer for some of them. Its worth a shot because despite what some of you have said about how you just want your wives to just decide to have SF even if they dont want to I dont think many of you would be really fulfilled knowing that she is just laying there waiting for you to be done because she isnt into whats happening. You dont want her to just be there, you want her to participate and enjoy it.

I'm probably about to get bashed all around for posting this, but someone had to say it. She can love you more than any woman has ever loved a man, and if she isnt satisfied with the sex itself you are not going to be getting much of it. At least not for the long term anyway, most women can deal with it when they are in love for awhile, sometimes a long while, but eventually most women will start rejecting SF.

OK let the bashing begin...

Honestly, I think Dr Harley is wrong about men craving sex more than women. Being a female, I believe that if a woman can embrace her sexuality, learn what feels good to her body, overcome the fears that come with being a female (pregnancy, vulnerability, etc) and toss out the psychobabble that she's socialized to believe about sex/women/men/good girls, that self-actualized woman will want and expect SF as much, if not more, than a man.

RareMamaJewel, that there is some good stuff.

Chris and not2fun, I'm not going to say you're off base. My situation is posted elsewhere. I'm not going to rehash it. Over time spent here and help from a lot of good posters, I worked to eliminate LBs, then work on meeting her ENs. Our marriage got better, our sex life went off-and-on...mostly off. It's off right now.

Does this mean that my W is not in love with me anymore? It's plausible. She does like me. She definitely acts like she likes she. So I have that going for me...

I hear you on that. I live there too. I'm sorry you experience this.

LS

MelodyLane has said many times before, that this is not the Needs-meeting program. It's a MARRIAGE BUILDING program. There's no magic 'poof' that happens if you diligently go about meeting your spouses emotional needs.

Meeting ENs is just part. There's eliminating LBs. And that's just part. There's radical honesty. POJA, UA time and more.

My husband just undid about 6 months of need-meeting with the outburst he had tonight. In fact, in a snit, I mentioned the "D" word again because I'm so sick and tired of it. Yes, it's more than the huge LB of the outburst and a few needs not met. A lot more.

It's the whole program.

And Luri nailed it when she stated that by the time people get here they are desperate.

Time is not usually on their side.

Isn't sexual desire driven by testosterone? I remember Dr Harley saying once that if women were given testosterone shots for a day they would understand why men think about sex so much!

Sorry 'House.

Thanks for the Melody quote. That makes a ton of sense. If I cut and paste it every time I think about posting something...it would probably kill about half of my posts before they started.

No bashing from me. I agree with your post.

RE Open and honest, well i don't do that correctly because when I try to be O&H some DJ get thrown at me and by me. Being O&H gets me back into a mind field and I suspect it works that way for other men and women.

Sometimes when I am O&H my W thinks I am trying to pick a fight. Withdraw doesn't solve any or many problems, but it avoids a dissagrement. I can say something I think is a compliment and sometimes my W hears a putdown or complaint. Mars Venus? I don't have a clue sometimes but still try on occassion.

Lou

My statement was actually a quote of raremamajewel, but I can never figure out that quote thing. I think that according to many studies, the typical man thinks about sex more than the typical woman, and has a higher drive. I know it isn't universal because I am not the only one of my friends who has a higher drive than her H (us sex-crazed women must just flock together - har har). As a teacher, there is a lot of data out there that tells us what works for most kids. But there are kids who don't fit the data. As teachers, we can't just ignore those kids; we have to find a way to teach them too. We can't just insist that they fit the norm. So I guess my frustration sometimes comes from trying to "fit" a "typical" mold when my experience tells me that a square peg won't fit into a round hole. So I need a different peg.

and while the men might enjoy their wives getting a taste of that, I highly doubt they would enjoy the side effects that go along with that.....facial hair, back hair, backachne.....

ewwwww.....back hair. No offense to anyone. Not my thing.