I wasn't talking about her hitting you. I was talking about in general, whenever Prisca withdraws from you you start to get upset that you aren't making more progress. I wasn't referring to the incident of independent behavior.

The way I handled this Tuesday was out of line.

Monday I was expecting Prisca to do what she said she would do. Should I just never expect her to do anything she says she'll do?


I think you must be misreading me. I believe I am completely culpable for my action.


Did all that long before today. Tuesday night and all day Wednesday.

Does that fact that I disagree with what some posters are saying here today make you think I believe what I did to my wife was right and haven't apologized for it?

No, but you need a much better way of handling it when she doesn't.


I probably am, you seemed a bit defensive in your first posts. I apologize for misreading you.



No, but I hadn't read about your apology. You do realize that now it will be even harder for Prisca to open up to you? You realize that more of the behaviors that so frustrate and anger you will be forthcoming as she protects herself?

So, what is your plan for next time. What are you going to do to ensure you never AO again?

Thanks for your post, Telly. You always have great suggestions, and I like most of these.


Here is part of the problem. I do need a way to step away from situations like this. But if you'll go way back to the beginning of my thread, you'll find me leaving the house, and you'll see that didn't work out so well.

Given how Prisca felt Monday night, going off to watch television probably just would have left her feeling less helped.

Steve Harley told us when we come up to undivided attention time if one of us doesn't want to participate it would be best to not respond with independent behavior, going off by ourselves. He said worst case scenario, it would be best to just sit there looking at each other and not saying anything. So that's what I did from 9:30 to 10 Monday night when she wouldn't answer me when I asked about starting our recreational activity. Except I didn't look at her because the last time I did that she got upset.

Obviously if I'd just continued to do Tuesday what I did Monday things would have worked out a lot better. But it would be good to have some kind of escape valve where I can draw some sort of a boundary or remove myself. Better to IB than to AO, I suppose.

You can expect whatever you like, you know it's said that "Expectations are nothing more than premeditated resentments" and apparently they, whoever they are, were right cause you let her have it....... But seriously, you once again have skewed the point, whatever she does or doesn't do has no bearing on how you should behave. Some today have suggested that you may be controlling, I don't know about that, but I do know that you are allowing her to control your emotions. And funny thing, I went back and read page one of this post and that's how it was then as well.

One of the first things I posted to you, almost 620 posts ago was "Dude, your focus here is totally blurred. You�re so busy and intently focused on her that you�ve made yourself blurry and can�t see you. You can only control you, PERIOD. Work on you. Work on your communicating. Work on you making love deposits. Work on you." Same holds true today. I also said in that first post to you that it didn't appear that you were a safe place for your wife and guess what, same holds true today......

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Please keep your posts respectful and helpful to the OP! Several of these posts either are personal attacks or are on the border. If you can't make your point respectfully then please refrain from posting. Personal attacks will not be tolerated!

Well, I am somewhat defensive, but most of that is just wanting to clear up misconceptions, not because I believe my AO was justified.

I came here to post and confess my AO because it was wrong. I believed that from the start. I do appreciate each and every two by four, from all of you, except for a few that were based on misconceptions.

Feel free to lob bigger pieces of lumber if two by fours do not seem to be doing the job. I recognize that's how it appeared.


Well, I didn't post everything. (And obviously I've really confused things by not putting this all in chronological order.) I did think that was somewhat implied in saying that I did better last night. To me it wouldn't be better if I hadn't apologized.


Second question first:
Where can I find a successful plan someone has followed to eliminate Angry Outbursts? Since I obviously haven't succeeded, yet, I don't know how to achieve it.

I offered to find an anger management course two or three months ago, but Prisca did not want me to do that. Seriously. I want to take one. She does not want me to.

Someone mentioned confessing to someone at church and I think that sounds like a good idea. I will do that. That's why I was confessing here.

I also think education helps. I understand more and more that an angry outburst is nothing more than punishing my wife. I don't approve of it and I don't think I was right. You are right that the effect is to make it harder to get my needs met in marriage, not to mention hurting my wife. Steve talked about having a solid logical foundation of facts in our minds that will have to be very strong in order to override emotions.

That's exactly what's happening to me. My emotions were overridden all Monday night as I sat there patiently but sadly waiting for my wife's attention. No angry outburst. Back in March I related an incident in which I was patient for only two hours before an angry outburst. Obviously something's changing.

Also, I have a new experimental rule for myself to try:
* When my wife says something to me over the phone or email, assume she is venting and needs to be listened to. Practice active listening.
* When my wife says something to me in person, assume she wants me to problem solve and do something about it.

I have a problem: I can't tell the difference between these two scenarios. And Prisca does not like to be asked. In our discussion Tuesday, Prisca claimed that Monday night she wouldn't answer me because she'd already asked me to help. I asked for more information including a specific example, and all she had was a complaint she claims she made, which I do not remember her making. I think it is possible that she thinks she said something and didn't, but I also think it's likely that she said something and I interpreted it as venting, tried to respond kindly, and shortly thereafter started offering to help. Next time I hear something like that, in person, I'm going to risk jumping in and taking care of what's bothering her.

By the way, for those who say I'm focusing on my wife's behavior and not my own, be aware that I've left a lot of hers out of this story, because I am focusing on my own. Have I mentioned my wife's disrespectful judgments on Tuesday yet? Have I mentioned why Prisca was doing this job Monday at the last minute? I think it's best if I just leave that out. That leaves me focusing on two things: question 1, how do I eliminate angry outbursts, and question 0 (which came before question 1 but probably can't be answered first) what do I do about this independent behavior?

When my H has totally mastered this, we'll be sure to share

At this point, he's still working through it.

Also, I think your Coach will be instrumental in making some very good suggestions.

Why in the world would she not want you to take an anger management class?

I'm not sure you need to reach POJA on something like this. You have already reached POJA that you were both going to work to eliminate lovebusters, right? Taking an anger management class will help you reach that goal.

Chris, I do appreciate the two by fours, each and every one. That's why I posted my faults. I do think some of the specific questions, suggestions, and assumptions have been misguided.

I have no idea what your edited post said, but you're welcome to keep posting to me anything you think will help achieve what needs to be achieved in my marriage. I'll let other people be the judge of what's a personal attack or not.

I do think the feminist-perspective insights aren't particularly helpful in our situation. My wife is welcome to get a job whenever she wants. I'm the feminist; she's not. I don't believe it has anything to do with equality between men and women or an unequal financial status between us or anything.

Also, one final note to everybody: when I come here and say I got angry, please be aware that the image in your head of what happened may not be exactly what happened. That does not mean I justify what I did. It does mean that I am trying not to minimize it so you may be assuming worse than the truth.

That's part of my plan. Also looking forward to that training you said the Harley's have for anger.

I don't have much experience dealing with AOs, but I can advise what works for me and what I would do if I were you.

Regarding you having to ASSUME what she needs. This is a plan for more pain and LBs. However since Prisca does not like to be asked which she wants perhaps you can TELL her what you're doing.

"I am going to listen to you vent and support you right now. If that is not what you need tell me"

"I hear that there is a problem, I am going to try to find a solution with you. If that is not what you need tell me."

Let her know which of the two you are doing in a strait forward way and put the onus on her to correct your assumption. But at least tell her you are operating on an assumption.

I'm sure there are books and resources you could read to understand your angry outbursts and how to short circuit them. If Prisca is averse to you taking Anger Management, get books, find online support groups, do what you can to deal with the issue. Proactively research and do what you can do to deal with this problem.

Seriously, reread the Space/Grace post. It is what you MOST need to learn right now. Read it every morning and night. Read it when you're upset. Read it until you've absorbed the information and it is a part of you.

Do NOT call your wife upset. If you are upset and she engages you tell her "I am upset and to protect you I am going to wait until I calm down to engage. I will need _____ time."

You may not have gone into details of all of Prisca's failings, but in the little you have told us, the focus is still too much on her.

Power comes from ACTING and not REACTING. So much of your actions are REACTIONS- you lose power over your behavior this way. Set a code by which you will live and ACT according to that code.

I think you would benefit from making a list of EPs in regards to your anger. Make a list of the things you will do to PROTECT, CARE FOR AND CHERISH you wife. Commit to them. Repeat them to yourself daily. Get these habits ingrained in you.

markos, my H and I had this exact same problem. My IB would trigger his angry outbursts. Dr Harley told me to STOP my IB's and told him to stop his AO's. In fact, my H was so shocked when Dr Harley told him to go take an anger management class that his AO's have virtually disappeared overnight!

He stopped giving into his anger, stopped acting on it; and we did our best to remove triggers. We have identified the triggers and worked hard to remove them. We knew my IB was a huge trigger. Another is bad traffic. And you know how bad that is down here H town. So, we do our best to avoid high traffic situations and plan our routes accordingly.

I will go get our posts from the weekend forum where Dr Harley helped us deal with this.

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Thanks, Vibrissa; these are great suggestions.


She doesn't much like the onus being on her to correct my assumptions, either, but there's not much I can do. She thinks I should know which is which, she doesn't like me to ask. I will try telling her what my assumption is and welcoming her to correct me and then going ahead with my plan; that may work better than what I've got now.

After we went over our ENQ's Steve talked about how getting this kind of communication was really a helpful shortcut; you don't always have it, and when you don't, the non-shortcut way to handle things is simple trial and error: study your spouse, formulate a hypothesis about what they might like, try it, and see from your own observation. I think I'm going to have to try this here.


I will try that.

This isn't MB specifically but I used to counsel parents with difficult children. In one instance, the child (teenager) and the mom ended up in vicious cursing matches often. The child usually started it but the mom couldn't help herself being dragged into it.

This particular mom worked at a nursing home in the dementia unit. She was cursed at and insulted all day and never dreamed of giving it back to them... she would have lost her job. Why then could she not control herself with her own daughter whom she loved more than anything?

She had to step back....during the argument not permanently. I'm not suggesting she withdraw from her daughter. What I suggested was, treat each other as if you are strangers and don't have all that baggage/expectations.

How would you behave at work if someone was to attend a 2 hour meeting with you and blew it off for something he/she could have/ should have done prior? What would you say to a friend who was to meet you for lunch and then cancelled at the last minute because he was behind at work or had errands to run?

For me, I am working to eliminate DJ's but they still happen in my head so, for now, I am eliminating the angry behaviors that are a result of these DJ's

Interesting Sunny - and very true. It is harder to control our LBs with those we have to be around constantly.

Markos it may be helpful for you to go back and reread Chapter 2 of Love Busters.

Our spouses and families are those we can actually grow to hate simply because they are in the unique position to continually drain our Love Bank. After a limit our Taker will come out and fight for us. The way back to intimacy is to reign in your Taker.

Markos that is what you have to do, you have to reign in your Taker. You do pretty good most times, but when you let him out he comes out with a vengeance, not caring who he hurts.

What you need to do is protect yourself from letting your LB be drained as much as possible, through proper boundaries. And when you are LBed have a plan of ACTION for yourself. In the state of Conflict, when you are LBed your Taker wants to step in and get your way. Recognize this so that you can stop it. Identify steps you will take to keep your Taker from coming out and taking charge.

I know it is so hard, but it's you against your Taker. Your Taker only sees the short term, he's unreliable. Fight against him because YOU know what your long term goals are and your Taker can't help you in that fight.

ETA: markos, YOU are in control of your Taker, not the other way around. YOU CHOSE to let him out. Identify the steps your mind takes to JUSTIFY letting your Taker out so that you can recognize when you're doing it again, and STOP!

Markos,

Here's what I posted before. Hurry up and read it because it may be poofed at any second!


I notice a pattern with you & Prisca:

1 You perceive an LB
2 You engage her
3 She does not respond verbally
4 You engage with more force
5 She does not respond verbally
6 You AO
7 She Withdraws
8 You coax her out of AO

I posted earlier that I think you can break the pattern @ step 4 by choosing to behave differently. You can try telling her that you hope she'll share her concerns and fears with you when she feels safe doing so and then going and doing something else (something to take your mind off your rising anxiety.)

If step 4 happens differently, the rest of the steps will not remain the same.