Thanks, Mark.

Mark, you have such a way with words!!

I'll add to the metaphor. I've lived with AO's and DJ's. My H is now trying to regain my trust and I'm trying to learn to be O&H about my feelings.

He had shot my bucket full of holes with buckshot. I had already kicked the bucket to the curb when he managed to snatch it out before the garbage truck picked it up, but he's only managed to plug the holes with saran wrap. Now, every day that goes by where he treats me with respect and without AO's and DJ's and honors his agreements with me, another layer of saran wrap goes down, and the patch for the hole is reinforced a bit more. Eventually, I guess the patch would become something better than saran wrap. But one slip, and it's like he pulls off a whole sheet of the saran wrap from the bottom, and a *bunch* of the holes start leaking again. He has to start patching again, quickly, and it's almost like he's starting over. It's frustrating for me, because I'm tired of mopping up all the water in my living room.

Ok, that's as far as I'll extend the metaphor today.

Huh?

Just tryin' to use fewer words for a change...



And I just like the smileys.

She's getting better with the radical honesty. Although I loved my H, I hated our life together, and I used to silently wish that my H would die on the way home. I felt guilty about that, thought there was something wrong with me that I kept thinking about that. Rereading Chapter 1 in Love Busters, I find that this is to be expected in a marriage like I had, that where Love Busters rule, your spouse does become the one person you hate more than any person in your life. Have you read it? Thanks goodness, I don't wish that any more.

Yes, I've read it. Will be reading it again.

Won't be too long before I'm doing the Love Busters home study course.

You are right: she's being radically honest. And that's okay; that's what I want.

Between the time I left work and the time I got home, she wrote me a detailed explanation of what happened Monday night. I'm still digesting it all. There's just an amazing amount of miscommunication between us. I'm trying so hard to approach things in a way conducive to POJA and negotiation and taking her feelings into account: "How would you feel if ... ?" "Would you like me to ... ?" And she remembers many of those as "You told me I had to ..." and "You decided on your own ..."

At least I understand now where she was coming from Monday night. I don't think we've ever had so many miscommunications all at once.

One simple example: on the way home on the phone, we talked about our UA time Monday night which was going to be from 8-10 and our UA time Tuesday morning, 6-7. She mentioned she might have to finish up some of her baking during that time, getting up to put rolls in the oven, etc. I thought she was talking about the morning time; she was actually talking about the evening time. I mentioned I might sit there drinking coffee and talking to her while she worked. I don't drink coffee at night, but she didn't notice from that that I was talking about the morning. And I had no idea she wasn't talking about the morning.

That one's the tip of the iceberg and simple compared to many of the rest of these.

Guess what I found this morning: in Love Busters it says that it is my responsibility to make sure that my wife doesn't perceive that I am making a selfish demand. Now, I have been trying to make sure I word my requests in a way that makes it clear that they are requests and that I want my wife to say no to anything she is not enthusiastic about. I've been saying things like "How would you feel if ... ?" which is exactly what Love Busters suggests. But, the message is not getting across, so I will have to figure out how to make that more clear.

That would eliminate most of the miscommunication from that night.

The last sliver of it would be miscommunication the other direction, and opposite: Prisca feels she made requests of me that I ignored; I did not perceive any requests. I don't want to put her in a spot where she feels like she has to play Jeopardy to get her husband to acknowledge her ("Sorry, you don't get any points because your answer is not in the form of a question!") but I do need to learn how to truly recognize what she is saying.

And I think down the road that is probably going to mean going back to asking something like "Are you just venting, or would you like me to help you with this?" I'm not sure that wording of the question is exactly right for my wife, but I'm not sure it's the time for it yet, anyway. That will probably come later in recovery.

Hey Markos,

What do you think would happen if, at the moment either of you start to notice a disconnect, one of you (probably you) says something like:

"I can see we are veering off course here and something isn't right. How would you feel about taking a few minutes to talk with me about what we are doing right now, and what we want?"

And wait quietly for her to come sit with you.

I think that after this recent incident is EXACTLY the time to talk about "what do we do when we get de-railed?" and then talk through ideas like the one I am suggesting.

People will misunderstand each other. It happens all the time. What you do with those miscommunications is what's important.

Talk about THAT when you are not upset together.

Perhaps after a little UA time. Or when you are feeling particularly close and tender with one another.

Let me elaborate on this.

I do believe that when people get married and vow for better or for worse, they are obligating themselves to provide caring love.

But I also believe that this is somewhat like an exercise plan, in that if you are doing it and it hurts, something is wrong. You should stop immediately and get expert advice from a coach as to how to do what you need to do correctly such that it doesn't hurt (properly functioning marriage), or monitoring of the situation and a go-ahead to try again with a risk of possible hurt under monitoring from an expert (plan A). Otherwise, like exercise, if you keep pushing when it hurts, you will likely pull something and damage something: yourself, your spouse, your marriage.

Steve Harley shared that exercise analogy about our MB coaching exercises. He said that if we're ever completing an assignment and something hurts, that means we're doing something wrong, and we should stop and wait to talk to him again before trying again. Just the same as an athletic coach would tell an athlete.

I've got another analogy original with me. Some of you may identify strongly with this one. In childbirth, as the baby crowns, an expert (doctor, nurse, or midwife) will often tell the mother not to push until the situation has been checked out: they want to make sure that the umbilical cord is not wrapped around the baby's neck, or something else dangerous such that pushing might hurt the baby. Once the situation is checked out, they give the mother the go-ahead to push. It's not always necessary, but it is a precaution that has saved babies' lives and health.

Same analogy: there are some things you are supposed to just do, but if you are doing them and it hurts, something could be wrong. I believe that you should provide caring love for your spouse, because I believe that that is what you are promising to do when you get married, and I believe you should keep your promises. But if something about that situation makes that decision hurt, it is beneficial to you and your spouse and your marriage to suspend that specific activity temporarily and get help to correct the situation.

Lots of words for a yes or no question ... but, you know, it's my thread.

Chris, I wanted to clarify this. I did not personally find it disrespectful that you wanted to insist that these be yes or no answers. But I have been told the above, specifically by someone who was very upset that I was insisting he answer questions with only a yes or a no.

And I've caught myself trying to do the same to my wife at times, and changed my mind on not insisted on it. (I've probably done it at times and not caught myself. )

Anyway, I wanted to let you know that there was no offense taken.

But I still don't feel any need to confine myself to yes or no as answers.

Accountability: I called my church confessor and advisor last night on the way home, but didn't get ahold of him. I'm going to tell him about my angry outburst.

Just about everything we do affects our spouse either positively or negatively...per Dr Harley.

According to Dr Harley, whenever we strive to resolve a conflict, our first priority should be maintaining our love for each other. It is even more important that we avoid hurting each other than it is to fix the problem. Our LOVE for each other depends on how we attempt resolution more than it does on the resolution itself.

When I was turning wrenches on stock cars, we would have the car come off the track after being in a minor altercation with another car or with the fence and things would be bent and twisted, maybe with a tire that was cut to shreds, and our primary goal was to get back on the track without losing a lap. We might rip a fender off the car, cut the mounts lose with a reciprocating saw, change the tire and send him out with duct tape holding the pieces together. We solved the problem by brute force as quickly as possible. We got back in the race and worried about rebuilding the damaged car back at the shop before the next race.

Now if I hit something with my wife's car and have a similar situation with a bent fender and a tire that is torn up, my approach is going to be a bit different. I might be able to get the car back on the road faster by taking a torch to the fender, switching the tire and taping the shards of the front bumper cover back together than by having it hauled to the body shop, but it is more important that my wife's car be fixed right, that all the pieces remain intact and that the damage isn't compounded by my desire to fix it myself in the shortest time I can manage.

So it is with our marriage. There are many cases where my desire to fix a problem with the relationship can cause me to attempt to use brute force to impose a solution that I know will get us back on track without losing our position in the race. But the race is not as important as our ability to remain one committed unit. Our togetherness is more important than our comfort or our desire to get going again.

In some cases, we simply have to wait to solve a problem until we can have the situation addressed by a person who knows how to fix it for good so that everything else about the relationship is kept intact and we can end up with something that is as good or even better than before the crash.

In marriage, like in racing, before you can finish first, first you have to finish...

A perfectly executed plan to resolve a conflict that results in the conflict being taken care of once and for all but costs us our love for each other might be the right fix for the problem, but will result in the failure of our marriage. What will ultimately fix our marriage is to be in love with each other and THAT should be our goal no matter what needs fixing.

Mark

I'm glad you read her emails. I can't talk to my husband and he refuses to read emails.

Marriage Builders radio is all about angry outbursts today. Thanks, Dr. Harley!

Right now he's reinforcing something I've thought about emotions for years, but have failed to apply to anger: when you give in to the emotion, you reinforce the neural pathways that make it easier to do it next time.

We're off to Marriage Builders weekend!

Well, that gives me something to pray about for a few days...



Still won't be any instant pudding though...

Mark

Have a great time, Markos!! And tell Dr Harley I said hey!

We're back! Going to be a lot of catching up on life here for a day or so. Until then, I may not get to post a lot, although I'm sure self-control issues mean that I will anyway.

I took lots of notes, including notes on fun things to share on the forum. Saturday we got to see Dr. and Mrs. Harley try their first Red Bull energy drink.

We won an extra copy of His Needs, Her Needs, for Parents by being the couple who left the youngest child to come to the weekend. And we got Dr. Harley to autograph it!