well, Luri, you needn't worry.....sounds like your testosterone levels a pretty high anyway......no shot needed for you.....

This is a long article by female physician about SF in menopause, but it contains a very thorough explanation of female testosterone, and how the rates of fluctuation relative to estrogen are a major factor in mood, reaction to husbands, etc. It also explains how stress diverts progesterone, the precursor molecule to testosterone, into production of stress hormones instead of sex hormones.

Your sex drive before, during, and after menopause
by Marcy Holmes, Women�s Health NP,
& Dixie Mills, MD

http://www.womentowomen.com/sexualityandfertility/menopause-sexdrive-libido.aspx

As with cycles of anger or unmet ENs leading to SDs, DJs and AOs, the emotional stress of these unmet need and confrontational behaviors can lead to physical responses which reduce the ability to desire or enjoy sexual relations, even long after the causes of the stress are removed.

Another reason to check testosterone levels as a cause of low libido and anger (as well as a result of anger), is the other serious health problems associated with low testosterone, including heart disease and osteoporosis.

A generalization is just a generalization; it is not an insistance that everyone is like that. Everyone clearly is not. A generalization describes the majority and takes into account there are always exceptions.

Yeah, not, "I'm gonna pump (clap) you up!" Anyone recognize the SNL reference???

Retread, that aticle reminds me of when my mom went through menopause. There was this news segment about how eating oranges could increase this production and raise sex drive. My dad said, "I'm buying us a case of oranges!" He thought it would really get a rise out of Mom. She just looked at him dryly and said, "You couldn't keep up." HA! My parents were MB before MB was cool.

Agreed. The last time Mrs. Hold and I had sex, I said something like "I really feel connected to you when we have sex." She replied "you are lucky". I said "Lucky? Well, I guess it is not as bad as having been raped and being aversive to and dissociated from sex. But it doesn't feel lucky. It feels like a curse. I wish I didn't feel this way." She said "don't feel so bad, you aren't unusual, most guys feel that way."

I think we're both right. Most guys feel powerful a connection to their partner through sex. And lots of us wish we didn't.

No bashing. I am sure you are correct. Some substantial portion of wives not wanting sex is wives not wanting lousy sex. Or boring sex. Or SOSO sex. I am sure many men could use some help with their technique. Or with brainstorming new things to try.

The problem is, many of the women who are not comfortable with their sexuality would rather have open heart surgery without anesthesia than talk openly about sex.

But that doesn't mean we shouldn't keep offering to explore whether there is something she would like to try.

Agree: Disagree:

If the woman refuses that connection, most men will eventually dissolve the relationship and seek a new one. Most men are not going to neuter themselves just because their wives have neutered themselves.

The book Every Man's Battle says that like many human attributes, the sex drives of a population can be thought of as a bell curve. If you graphed them all, you'd see many people toward a middle average, and less and less people as you go towards very low drives or very high drives. What you'd see if you graphed men and women separately is that their curves peak at different averages: the "average" woman has a lower sex drive than the "average" man, but there are plenty of men and women with very low or very high sex drives. The real question is how tall the "tails" on each end of the graph are: how rare are the outliers?

ETA: I also think that if marriages were better, those curves would plot differently, and you probably would see a higher average female sex drive. I don't think EMB knows too much about MB.

I think this is an oversimplification, which is why I posted about being stereotyped. I'm not challenging the statement, because I believe testosterone has an significant impact on sexual craving.

However, as has been said here and elsewhere, the largest sex organ is "between the ears" -- the brain. The brain is far too complex, intricate, adaptable, and malleable to think that sex drive can be completely explained by the concentration of a single hormone.

For those who have criticized Dr. Harley, I think he really does understand that women can have a strong sex drive without testosterone. From one of his Q&A articles: As others have said, a couple (don't leave it all the woman alone to embrace and develop her sexuality -- the husband needs to do it, too) that embraces the wife's sexuality does have the potential to have a fulfilling sexual relationship for both.

I can't remember if I posted on this thread or not, but I'll risk repeating myself.

The other EN's can all be met outside marriage without totally destroying it. Granted, it's not GOOD for the marriage, and having three of the big four EN's met outside (Affection, Conversation, Recreational Companionship) will eventually erode it.

But SF is totally different. Going outside the M to get this WILL ALWAYS destroy the M.

No matter how you try to characterize it, this is a FACT.

There's more to it, of course -- there always is! -- but this is a baseline.

Should the higher-drive partner do everything in their power to meet the EN's? OF COURSE.

Does that always work?

If it did, we wouldn't be having this discussion, now, would we?

I will also add that I'm grateful that my DW has SF on her Top Five list. It's not at the top like it is for me, but it's in the mix.

She's also told me that she doesn't mind getting started when she's not actually in the mood, because I know how to get her there.

And don't you know I'm grateful for that fact as well.

I've embraced mine ...

I am an expert on my own body, and I know exactly what feels good for me ...

I have no fears of being female ...

And I have no "socialized beliefs" about sex ...

Yet, I would be happy if I never had sex again. My sex drive is at the lowest it has ever been in my adult life.

Six years ago, I was at the top of the chart as far as sex drives go. My husband couldn't keep up with me. I rated SF as the 2nd in my list of EN. Six years ago, though, I was in love. When my marriage became troubled, my sex drive disappeared.

I think Markos has a wonderful point when he said:

I think that is something that women forget. Even though I have the higher drive, there have been times in our M when H has crawled into bed and scooted close, and my initial reaction was, "Ugh, I'm so tired and stressed." But within a few minutes, I have forgotten I was tired or stressed. However, if I had refused based on my initial instinct, we would have missed a few of our most passionate interactions. Bevery La Haye, in her book about being a wife of excellence (or something like that) talks about this. She said that if a W knows her H is probably going to be in the mood, and she feels stressed, before she unilaterally refuses, she should take a little time to relax, maybe take a bubble bath, listen to soft music, put on something that makes her feel pretty. It's good advice. It may not always work, but it's worth a try.

I love that after my post about the bell curve, we have comments from AheadOfTheCurve.

AOTC, don't you just feel embarrassed now?

Beats being Behind The Curve.

Been there too -- it sucks.

So, barring acheiving perfection (which I will never do), what does a man or woman with a high need do? Get over it? I already know all the really neat stuff I am supposed to know. If all else fails, and you are NOT going to D, then what do you do? How (if at all) is my spouse responsibile for meeting this need? Things seem to be looking up for H and me, but this is a question I am curious about.

Why did your sex drive diminish when your marriage became troubled? "Love" being paired with "sex" is one of the top perceptions females are taught to have in their socialization process.

If there was cheating, abuse, utter selfishness, etc, I can understand why *he* would be a turn off, but why your whole sex drive? (if I may ask)

I do believe that a wife can embrace her desires and fantasies and put all the other mumbo jumbo aside. Why put a bunch of requirements on a husband in exchange for sex? We're only shorting ourselves. (Speaking in terms of relationships where both partners are what Dr Harley calls "buyers". If the husband selfishly pursues his own pleasure constantly, is cheating, or abusive in any way, then a woman is better off moving forward w/o him in her life.)

I get the jist of what Dr Harley was conveying to his male audience in the letter. He basically was telling the men to romance their ladies a bit more. To pay the types of attention to her that he did when they both were in the early stages of the relationship (like when she could talk for hours and he was enthralled with her every word). Do the ego strokes that he used to woo her in the beginning.

When it comes to sex in M, it's definitely about being able to POJA and negotiate, keep it exciting, enticing, etc. Also, there's usually more repercussions for wives (whether we are of child-bearing age or post-menopausal) to deal with when we chose to have sex. Husbands should acknowledge that and remember that in their approach.

Don't disagree with the notion about the boring sex and its effects. Along the lines of your next comment about not ever wanting to talk about sex.....Its difficult to make sex NOT boring when every attempt to add variety is shot down instantly. And that includes even the female type of variety like long bubble baths and NON_SEXUAL full body massage for an hour etc.

When anything outside of what has been normal gets shot down and I ask if she is willing to try something else also gets shot down, I guess I need to quit asking and listening and just go for something I want, with in reason.

Woulld that work?

Lou

This is what probably gives most husbands trouble when their wives become disinterested in SF. Men can understand their wife losing interest in them, because of something they did, of failed to do. What they cannot comprehend is how they would lose all interest in SF for themselves. So they start trying to mind read:

"She must be just holding out deliberately, to punish me or get something, or to control me."

"Or she must be cheating on me."

Like most problems, if the angry spouse won't admit they are acting differently, or won't admit they are angry, or won't discuss what made them withdraw, the other spouse is left to guessing. The first 10 guesses are usually wrong, and go from bad to worse.