Yes I think that Men need to realize that much more goes into foreplay than they know and seek to learn about what thier wives find exciting. Maybe Wives need to realize how important it is to thier husband emotionally and spiritually to feel wanted by them.

Some insight and truth in comunication wouldn't hurt either

Well, I dunno if this will help with the asking, but it might help with keeping track:
What is a Passion Pig?

I saw that episode of Trading Spaces. I thought it was a cute, light-hearted way of keeping track.

This is interesting. I'm not sure if I'm merely playing Devil's advocate, or expressing some deep resentment about an injustice I see in this attitude.

What is the attitude I see? It feels to me like I (as a man) need to "earn" the right to make love to my wife. What would happen if we flipped it around and start telling women they have to "earn" the right to talk to their husbands? Their would be a great deal of frustration on the part of women. In fact, how often do we hear women complain that they can't get more than two syllables out of their husbands. Unmet needs generate quite a bit of frustration.

Where I sometimes feel there's an injustice is in who is given responsibility for the unmet need. It seems (and maybe I just feel picked on) that a lot of the blame is placed on men. For the unmet "her" needs of affection and conversation, men are told to suck up and do it because it would be the right thing to do. For the unmet "his" need of SF, men are again told they are at fault and need to be more affectionate and considerate and maybe eventually they will earn the right to get their need met. It sometimes feels like I'm bearing all of the responsibility for the success or failure of the relationship, and I get tired of carrying that burden myself.

As someone posted, men need to recognize there's more to foreplay than a bouquet of flowers and a kiss. Women need to try to understand how important this is to their husbands and take responsibility for their part in metting this need.

As I noted earlier, I find the feedback loop created by meeting each other's needs very interesting. There's no question I need to give my wife a lot of "non-sexual attention" so she is more willing to make love to me. On the flip side, the more willing my wife is to make love to me, the easier and more willing I am to show her a lot of "non-sexual attention."

Ultimately, I guess I feel like a relationship has the best chance of success when both parties agree to bear resonsibility for the relationship and both parties put forth their best efforts. When I feel like I am bearing most of the responsibility and my wife is "along for the ride" as long as I'm doing everything just right, then I feel resentful, and sometimes find myself tempted to stop trying. When I can see my wife willingly owning her part of the responsibility, then I'm excited to please her in and out of the bedroom.

(I hope that makes sense).

Nobody has a 'right' to get their needs met. I see all of them more like a privilege that can not be earned, only extended. You're right, if I (as a wife) don't want to have sex with you (as a husband) no matter what you do to 'earn' it, it's a problem with my extension, not a deficit in your account.

When I wrote what you quoted, I was thinking of my most frustrating days, when I ended up dealing with a pouty spouse who wanted sex at the end of a trying day with me at home alone for fourteen hours with a newborn, 1yo, 2yo, and 7yo, where he had ignored me all day long and then growled at me when he came home. And then wanted to have sex. I'm probably holding more resentment than you are, lol. At that time, all I could think was "get the heck away from me, you're just going to give me another baby and since you haven't noticed, I'm full up with those!"

Thank goodness those days are over. Now I get all hot and bothered by a "Hi."

CWMI, if you get hot and bothered by a hi, then you might just be as weird and twisted as me. Have you had your testosterone checked??? Do you have extra muscles or anything????

I've finally leveled out after the years of hormone surges. Back to my old sprightly self! lol.

Add in no clues when I am doing things correctly and the plot thickens to the dark side. I relate to you Mr Shorty.

Lou

Have you guys talked with your wives directly about their views on sex?

This is a question I've been working through for a while now. A few of my thoughts on the subject:

1) CWMI makes a good point about clearly asking for it. I recently listened to a CD by a Dr. John Lund who promotes a concept he calls "content communication." The basic idea is to say what you mean, mean what you say, and state your needs and desires clearly so your spouse knows what you want. He illustrated the concept with the example of a couple driving home (about 10 min away). She sees a convenience store and says, "I'm really thirsty." She's trying to imply/hint that she wants to stop and get a drink. The husband hears, "I'm really thirsty." and decides to hurry and get her home so she can get a drink.

It's easy for me to see how this concept applies to something as mundane as getting a drink. I find it more difficult to apply to SF. Maybe because SF is more emotional (and rejection hurts more when I know she understood), maybe there's something else, maybe it's just something I need to "get over" and just do it.

The other side is, does it have to be verbal? Can the right kiss or the right touch communicate that desire just as clearly? Probably a question more appropriately posed to a spouse than an internet forum, but an interesting question for an open discussion anyway.

I'm not entirely sure how, but it does seem important to figure out how to clearly communicate desire.

2) One interesting thing I've found also came from Dr. Lund's writings. In the early '80's (so it's probably out of print), He wrote a book called Avoiding Emotional Divorce where he described three love languages (not to be confused with Dr. Chapman's five love languages). One of those love languages was called "task-oriented" (later works refer to these as "visual oriented"). Related to the current discussion, one interesting thing Dr. Lund noted was that tas-oriented people don't like to be "surprised" with sexual advnaces. When they come to bed with the intention of sleeping, that's what they want to do. The key is to give them sufficient "warning" to anticipate when you want SF. On one occasion, I came home from work and told my wife (not asked) that I was going to make a move that night. On another occasion, I told her, "it's been a while, please pick a time this week." On both occasions, it seemed to work. She could anticipate what was going to happen and be ready for it, rather than surprised by it.

I just haven't figured out how to make this a "routine" way to approach the subject. Maybe this is where the idea of scheduling sex may help (less a question of asking) or, as Dr. Harley describes in the newsletter article, the idea of a "date night" for UA time, and it is clearly communicated that, amongst other things, sex is (or at least could be) on the agenda.

It seems that, at least sometimes in some cases, the request needs to allow the spouse to "anticipate" and prepare for the event.

I've often thought that one of Dr. Harley's strategies seems like it would be effective. I don't remember where it was described (I believe it was in one of the Q&A articles here), but it looks like this. The "low desire" spouse is given free rein to choose when/where SF occurs during the week. If nothing happens by Sat. night, then they have a "set-in-stone" appointment for Sun. morning.

From our discussion so far, it should be clear that the husband needs to be attentive to his wife's needs and to love busters so as not to distract her from the "anticipation."

3) It seems (and this is probably as much a trust issue on my part) that part of my "fear" in asking is how will the request be treated. It makes it hard to clearly ask for SF if I'm afraid that rejection is likely and will be delivered with disrespect. On the other hand, if she treats my request with respect, it is easier to ask even when she has to say, "no."

Not sure there are many "answers" to the question, but I hope it helps further the discussion.

Asking without stress...

Wouldn't it be nice if we could POJA this, then be O&H enough to remind each other that we are "falling behind" on our commitment?

Let's say H wants SF twice a week on his ENQ.
Wife thinks 25 times a year is plenty for her.
But they are doing it less than 25 times now, anyway, so they are both guessing.
So they compromise on 50 times a year, once a week, as the minimum.

Then they keep track of it, both of them, like a budget, writing it down together.

It's been two weeks without any SF, so H says, "You know, it's been two weeks now..., what are you doing Friday night? I was thinking of going to dinner, then back here and play around."

I think to really get this to work, you need to also POJA to take turns initiating. If H initiated last time, then it's W's turn to pick the time and place next time. Takes the pressure off both of them.

Just my theory.

Yes. Her answers were Sex is for young people. An old guy like me �SHOULD HAVE� ED and not be interested in sex because ED usually effects men around age 50 and I am 65, so I am AB-Normal, which makes her normal.

Then there is her, �we just did it� yes, 2 weeks ago. Or it if too/not too (fill in the blank with several options). Then there are the physical things such as tired, too late, too early, she might get a UTI, sex is a hazard for women.

I mostly quit imitating or expecting. If I can substitute something for the sex and AFFECTION I want, I go that route most of the time.

I want a partner that wants to be with me.

Any of this ring any bells?

Lou

What about any "backance" or unwanted facial hair????.....

Well the WRONG way would be ......"how about a BJ?", "wanna do it?", and worse yet.....is DEMANDING it.....(btw, I found Dr. H's thought on Pauls verses being "suggestions" quite enlightening.....sorry, but I've witnessed many a good women become adverse to sex because of well-intentioned men using this for their own personal gain......).

HOWEVER, by opening a thoughtful discussion on it, without using DJ's, sarcasm, guilt, and ridicule, and LISTENING to what your wife has to say about it will go a long way.......an even BETTER question is to ASK her what SPECIFICALLY can you do to help her get into "the mood"........

I have to disagree here........I will say that maybe men don't place enough importance to what a woman NEEDS....(FYI men, it ain't your skills that are usually lacking, it's the moments way BEFORE the event that are lacking......). You all seemed to know EXACTLY how to met your wife's EN's when you were dating.........it is STILL important to us after the ceremony....


I will wholeheartedly agree with this. Yes, we women don't "get it". If I understood this prior to MB, my marriage would have fared much better than it did........if women understood the H's need to sex as important as Affection, Conversation, or whatever their top need happens to be, it would be easier.......

Not2fun

Ps.......I've already "lectured" the women of 101 about sex and men in another thread. To me, this thread is about the men, so I won't do it again on this one.....

This is not all that complicated. Implement the MB system. Refrain from LBs. Meet her ENs. If that does not motivate her to meet your need for SF, then you face an unpleasant choice. There is no magic wand. Avoiding LBs and meeting ENs works some significant percentage of the time. It also fails to work a significant percentage of the time (or else Dr. Harley would not have written a column describing what he typically does when "Plan A" doesn't work).

That does not make his situation easy to endure. But it is not difficult to describe.

Beyond implementing MB, the other technique that works a decent percentage of the time is to stop being such a "nice guy". This will in many ways seem antithetical to MB principles. So it should be attempted only after MB has been tried and proven ineffective (and you should confirm with the Harleys before you conclude that is the case). If you get to the point where the Harleys say "sorry, we can't help you", then go to the No More Mr. Nice Guy web site. Buy the book. Do the exercises. And see if that helps.

This is like treating cancer. Sometimes the treatments work. Sometimes they don't. Hard to predict in advance when they will and when they won't. And when they don't, the result is likely to be tragic. Which is why so many people locked in sex-deprived relationships post with such desperation.

This is a really interesting idea.

I think this is what in some ways my spouse has said about the MB system....he really has expressed dislike for that en's meeting system to get what you want in return....he is thinking that somehow that is manipulating the other person & if they don't comply to meet your en's does that justify D? at least he sees Dr.H's program as doing just that justifying D if your needs aren't met....of course his are met....so it's not a issue for him and I suspect that is what fuels his thinking even more....and since WARNING ALERT continue reading at your own risk....SF is not in his top needs (GASP).....he is not buying into it...but rather rejecting it. He requires a more larger list of en's to choose from...says there must be more and wants the statical breakdown of how Dr.H compiled the 10 he lists... says it is not enough to pick from....yet he can say what is not his top needs are...SF/RC...NOT his top but won't tell me or respond about any others....he just focuses on those and HATES that Dr.H says most men fall into this catagory...funny this thread is filled with men that feel SF is their top need....that is like affection is for a woman.

Boy, does he have it wrong:

Meeting ENs is not about trading. It is about identifying what your spouse needs to be feel loved, so you can do those things.

When I first showed my wife HNHN and told her what a clear vision it had, she read the first chapter and had the same reaction, that it was a justification for divorce by spouses who weren't getting everything they want. I can see how the subtitle, "How to Affair-proof Your Marriage", and the heavy discussion of divorce, affairs, addiction and meanness in the first of the book could give someone that impression, if they don't open their mind and go further.

As for "wanting to see the statistical data", that is laughable, because Dr. Harley's system works for so many people. But it is like an really good exercise program or an investing program: it only works for those who follow it.

This made me think of two brilliant surgeons I know, who practice together, and developed new procedures. In their specialty of cancer surgery, the survival rate is 30%, with 65% permanent side effects. Their survival rate is 95%, with 10% permanent side effects. For years, other surgeons demanded their statistical data, trying to deny their success. They got it. The success rate is real. You can't argue with the methods when they are ethical and the bottom line full.

"Meeting ENs is not about trading. It is about identifying what your spouse needs to be feel loved, so you can do those things."

I agree that this is what MB is about, but I hear an awful lot of "I don't do so and so because spouse doesn't do so and so." So we need to examine ourselves.

Or it's cousin...I "can't" meet spouse's needs because they won't do so and so.