Just keep up the good work!

Igrip,

Echoing what others have posted you:

1. Stop being a doormat!!! I foolishly did it too (it�s natural when you are hurting and feel helpless), but it NEVER WORKS. It�s an open invitation for your WW to run to the OM whom she sees as �stronger� than you right now. It is ok to express your sincere and firm desire to improve your marriage together, but you must NOT grovel, beg, cry, over-apologize, accept any responsibility whatsoever for her sleazy affair, or reinforce her own excuses and rationalizations either. You must be STRONG and FIRM about her ending the affair FIRST before recovery and healing can begin. You must control your emotions and stick to your plan with as much dispassionate outward-strength as you can muster. Come here to vent or weep�don�t do it in front of her!

2. Her anger over your exposure is TEXTBOOK WAYWARD BEHAVIOR. Ignore it and do not ever apologize for telling the truth or the consequences that others may bring upon her for �knowing�. This is HER PROBLEM and the negative fallout of exposure upon her previous �fun little secret� is EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANT TO PRESSURE THE AFFAIR�S END.

3. �Giving her space� (or �time alone to herself�) is the ABSOLUTE WRONG THING TO DO. You need to be continually snooping/pressuring her affair (the stick of Plan A) and showing her a new & improved home-life to entice her back to (the carrot of Plan A). You may think that you are honoring her wishes and being helpful with �space�, but in reality this stuff is just the WW�s way of getting you out-of-her-hair so she can resume seeing & boinking the OM. My WW manipulated me like this over and over; she ran right back to her lover�s bed the moment I �gave her space� every time. DON�T FALL FOR THIS!

4. The stuff above (from Jayne241) is CLASSIC for WWs. I got it too. Every BH does. The WW, in her current twisted, affair-addicted mentality, will almost always resentfully/angrily/sarcastically say things like:

�You are just figuring this out now?�
�Why didn�t you do this before?�
�I tried to tell you a million times�you didn�t listen!�
�You are only saying this stuff or acting this way to get me back!�
�I don�t believe you�you have had many chances before.�
�It is too late now anyway!�

Here�s what this all really means:

WW has already mentally demonized and scapegoated you as �a crappy husband� in order for her to rationalize to herself why she �deserves to be happy� with the OM (who undoubtedly paid tons of attention to her, listened empathetically to her, and showered her with feel-good compliments to get in her pants). She feels that you had �blown it� beforehand, she found someone different who �really loves her�, and why should she give up what she has with OM for a �new� you that might not be genuine or sustained? When you �carrot� her, she will grow frustrated and resentful. In her mind, the �carrot-ing� complicates and clouds the pre-existing mental assessment she had of you and OM. She wants to feel JUSTIFIED in devaluing you and valuing OM. She will probably lash out at you for scrambling the neat little scenario she has set up in her head. Thus, the �you should have done this before�it�s too late now� rants.

For the generic BH:

In virtually every WW-situation, she enters the affair after feeling �wronged� by her BH for quite some time. The �wrong� usually takes the form of a strong sensation of emotional neglect (inadequate time/conversation together, being taken-for-granted, feeling unappreciated, too much independent behavior by the BH, lack of enough overt affection, forgetting the �little things�, etc). In fairness, quite often she does have complaints and discontents that are legitimate. Often the BH is a �model husband� (hardworking, faithful, well-intentioned) on a superficial level but he, usually via simple ignorance only, doesn�t realize that his wife is increasingly insecure and doubting of his love for her. The wife often does a poor job, although she will later INSIST OTHERWISE, of communicating this to her husband. She hints, she suggests, she tap-dances around it, she may �nag�, or she may just plain keep it largely to herself (while telling girlfriends) and withdraw. Being diplomatically circular in most communications, the female often misinterprets a male�s (we men are DIRECT thinkers) failure to respond as she desires as: �I told him, he knows, but he doesn�t care� rather than what it likely truly is�he is just simply missing the clues and not intentionally blowing her off. [This is all classic �Mars Vs. Venus� stuff here].

This misconnection can run the gamut from the extreme of a husband truly being a clueless, insensitive, unromantic dolt to the other extreme of a wife who has no idea how to communicate to her mate and/or just expects him to be practically clairvoyant about what is secretly eating at her. Usually, like with all things in this world, the reality is somewhere in between and there has been failings on both sides. Once she gets it in her head that her husband �should�ve known and just doesn�t care�, she is ripe for selling-out her principles, values, and boundaries once an OM starts charming and/or responding to her. After that point, she is assuredly going to exaggerate every flaw and mistake (legitimate or otherwise) in her BH and dismiss or deny all of her own. Welcome to the dreaded �you didn�t care about me before and now it�s too late for us� world.

I lived all the above and it is sadly real, heartbreaking, and avoidable if the OM is removed from the picture and the 2 spouses work WITH each other instead of the WW blaming the BH for the affair & the conditions that preceded it.

Yes, stop the relationship talk! It isn't attractive to a WW, makes you look needy, AND you can't believe anything she says anyway, she's under the influence of addiction to hormones.

And stop trying to "give her space" too.

Have you read up on Plan A? Do you have a plan for an excellent Plan A tomorrow (Mother's Day)?

To clarify:

You say "I just can't keep my mouth shut... I try to give her space but I can't."

Two different things here:
(1) NO RELATIONSHIP TALK.
(2) That doesn't mean "give her space."

Be with her, and make it pleasant for her. Have fun. Be attractive. Woo her like you did when y'all were dating. Don't be hang-dog, don't "smother" her... which doesn't mean leaving her alone, but it DOES mean no needy relationship talk.

Face it - she AIN'T gonna say anything reassuring to you right now. So no point in asking her to.

Specifically:
Don't ask her "Weren't we happy once?" "Didn't you enjoy doing _____?" "Didn't you mean it when you said you loved me?" "Don't you remember how much fun we had when we went ____?" "What about the times when we _____?"

Also don't ask "Is there any spark at all left?" "Is there any hope?" "Don't you still love me?" etc.

I'm not saying there is no hope. I'm just saying she is in NO state of mind to give you any reassurance right now!

YOU must be strong as a rock right now. And you can. If you must fall apart, fall apart *here*. But around her, be someone she would want to spend the rest of her life with.

Don't smother her with relationship talk. *That* is how you can "give her space" but that isn't really giving her "space" because you are replacing it with Plan A behaviors. But do NOT give her *physical* space to go see the OM.

Don't pay attention to anything she might say. Her brain is on drugs right now - addictive feel-good exciting-forbidden hormone-type drugs. Just stay the course.

Be a Plan A rock.

Face it - she AIN'T gonna say anything reassuring to you right now. So no point in asking her to.
I had asked all of the above to my WH when we were still living together (he was in an A but I did not know then). I can tell yo the answers so you can spare yourself asking her and have your curiosity satified.
"I was really never happy with you" "When I said I loved you? Well that was a while ago!" "Yes, we went to ___together but that was a while ago (it was only 4 months ago) and I was not as happy as I looked"
And to the questions I stupidly asked that was: is there any hope that you will loe me again, that you will have feelings for me againone day."
The answer was "at this point I really donot think so. I have no felings left for you" and when saying this he started to cry. Yes he cried! What a drama queen he was. Of course seeing your H cry (he is a big tall man) and teling you he will never love you again...yes is simply devastating. I started to ry too and of course that was soo unappealing and so wrong to do...
Do not make my same mistakes. If you do not plan A her well it will jeopardize your chanes to R the M if she ends the A.
No relationship talk. Read a spiritually oriented book or watch movies together. Take a hike with her. Cook something special for dinner....keep your self engged in good things.
blessing

The "no relationship talk" part of Plan A is very important and often not highlighted enough around here.

Like Atena, I did all the same "relationship talk" mistakes with my WW (also like Atena, I didn't definitively know of the affair/OM at that point--my own fault for not snooping enough).

Igrip, to put your mind at ease here for what inevitably results, I can assure you that when I went heavy on the RT, the usual result was WW becoming belligerent and then running away (both emotionally and physically).

The few periods when I minimized the RT and we just spent quality time together one-on-one, were the few in which she seemed to gradually open up a bit and draw a little closer.

Unfortunately, in addition to blowing the "stick" of Plan A, I did far more of the former than the latter. My "carrot" was therefore, well-intentioned and sincere, but not very effective. I read this line from another source on "rescuing a marriage in trouble" that seems very counter-intuitive but is also VERY TRUE:

"Stop talking about the relationship, and the relationship will naturally improve."

When someone presses for RT with someone who is emotionally disconnected, they inevitably come across as weak & needy--which makes the relationship appear even more unappealing to the other person. When you do the opposite, you display strength & confidence--which of course are attractive qualities.

It is SO HARD to do as a BS when you are an emotional wreck who has been devastated by a WS who doesn't seem to notice or care about the damage they are inflicting. But, you have to find a way to not go to pieces in front of your WS and to just BE WITH THEM w/o pressuring them for reassurance by having RT.

As usual, good advice here.

My main step is to keep my mouth shut about relationship and how I feel. I did that yesterday (well, the latter part of yesterday). I feel that pushes her away more and more - I have to leave it though - she knows my feelings...I need to let her be for a bit as my talking is not doing any good). Last night, just went to say good night to her and went off to my room. Pleasant enough. This morning, she sent me an email with how she felt (from an article she found - first email I received from her in two weeks). She did not sleep well last night she said..nor has she been eating well...I'm not sure if my talking makes her ill or if something else is eating at her..will see this week if my new 'quiet' makes her feel any better.

This morning, she awoke and was asking me a few questions and telling me a bit about what bothered her in the past...I nodded, LISTENED and did not argue any facts. She feels (rightfully so to a part) that she has been 'emotionally abused' by me - everything she used to tell me, I twisted around and made them 'her fault' I do agree that I was not as easy to live with as I would have thought (not to excuse the adultery, but right now, I just want my wife back). I am learning, counseling and making positive changes to myself (listening, learning new behaviors that I SHOULD learn to avoid being a bully, pushy, selfish, etc., being less 'clingy' with our daughter, helping more around the house). She noticed the laundry this morning and said I didn't have to - I told her I wanted to - I have not done it in 7 years and I felt I should. Our daughter was much more free and active at the playground yesterday without me following her around protectively.

So, my goal is to listen (listen listen listen) to my wife in the hopes that she will continue reaching out to me telling me her issues (and making me and our home a safe feeling place for her) and no relationship talk.

I'm not sure if I am being delusional or hopeful - but what else can I do. I WANT to fight for this more than anything I have ever done before.

And I have to stop taking her words (I was done long ago, I have no feelings left, you chipped away and now I am down to nothing) to heart right?

She loved me once....why not again? Again, hopeful. But what else do I have - positive thoughts positive thoughts positive thoughts.

Thanks again....

Igrip,

The words and phrases you mentioned are all STANDARD wayward fog-babble. We have ALL heard them a million times before (both here on MB and in our respective affair-situations). As much as it hurts to hear her say them, try not to let them get you down and do NOT try to talk or reason her out of them....never works!

When your WW is saying stuff like �I have no feelings left for you and it can�t change now�, she is communicating part-truth and part-justification.

The �truth part� is that her love bank probably was (and is still) severely depleted to the point that she doesn�t have any �lovey-dovey feelings� for you at this point.

The �justification part� is that it is all YOUR fault, she bears no responsibility or obligation (for either the affair or the marital preconditions), and that �following-her-heart� to continue her adultery-depravity is OK because �it�s too late now� for her marriage. In effect, she wants to use the past problems and issues between you to continue rationalizing her PRESENT and FUTURE misdeeds.

�Love cannot change the past, but love does make the future different.� (Dr. Gary Chapman)

Your WW is very unlikely to accept even the possibility of the above truism being correct as long as she is choosing to receive her love-bank deposits from her sleazy POSOM rather than from you, her HUSBAND.

You got it! She can love you again if you do this right. The fastest and most effective way for you to fall in love again is to spend 20+ hours a week together meeting these 4 needs: sexual fulfillment, conversation, affection, and recreational companionship. Check out this thread: here

Its recommended that you actually schedule this time at the start of every week by writing out the time, date and activity. This should be time ALONE where you are giving each other undivided attention.

Agreed...but in the time being, she wants nothing to do with 'quality time.' I really believe and see that she is 'possessed' right now (addicted, alien abduction, whatever you want to call it).

She doesn't want to 'give hope' by smiling, letting her guard down, etc. BUT, we have a child that we both love spending time with. Everything I do now (take the night off, etc), she feels as if I never did it before (I did, she doesn't remember right now). I know I cannot change her mind, and I have to be patient.

BUT this is the hardest thing I have ever imagined having to do.

And I came up with a great 'analogy' last night to her. In the two weeks that I 'realized' that the marriage was not happy for her, she shut down at that point. Emotionally, physically...just a wall instead of a face. About that time (I am guessing) is where the physical part of her affair started. SO, he has already replaced me in her mind. That is why all the talking I do - she cannot accept because "HE" is who she is with now. Sleeping in the other room, not consoling me or feeling sad when I am, etc.....I've had MUCH less relationship time with an EX years ago (less than 2 years) and when we broke up, we still consoled each other for a few months after the break up (cried together, spend some time together, etc). This, the mother of my child and 12 year relationship, has gone cold. No amount of anything will bring out any emotion. To me, that is KEY that her mind is not rational right now. And to think that she is trying to make a decision that will impact the rest of our lives just bedazzles me. I keep hoping for a 'sign from above' that show her how difficult life is going to be. I dream of that day and hope that it comes sooner than later.

A few of my friends have gone through similar - and the common theme - the wives have come back a few months later regretting their decision to walk. I can see this clearly. Unfortunately, she cannot and I cannot make her see this. She has to see it on her own. Again, difficult for me to watch as it is my life that is getting unraveled.

That is a truly horrifying and sobering part of this, isn't it? A wayward, in the grips of their mind-altering A, are the ones making such monumental decisions that effect so many people.

Hang in there, igrip.

The above illustrates perfectly the �between a rock and a hard place� quandary a BH is in when trying sincerely to reconnect and heal with an actively-cheating WW.

Melody is certainly correct that spending time together and meeting key ENs is the most effective way to restore and rebuild the feelings of romantic love that best motivate BOTH people to reconcile past resentments and build a �new & improved� future together.

Igrip is also correct in pointing out that accomplishing that in practice is exceedingly difficult when the WW refuses to participate. WWs usually make themselves very, very �unavailable�, both physically & emotionally, to allowing their BH make any such �love deposits�. Their �love bank� is intentionally & voluntarily closed. In fact, it�s usually not just �closed�, but also boarded-up and patrolled by attack dogs set to strike at any attempt by the BH to approach it. WWs do this as an affair-justification and affair-protection mechanism. They don�t want any emotional/mental conflict in their feelings to intrude upon their �I love OM and I don�t love my husband� mindset. I understand that the carrot of Plan A is vital, but it will be minimally effective in depositing love units as long as she is still in contact with her lover. The affair must be broken first and ASAP.

I know that Melody (and all other MB vets) know this well. I suspect that anyone who doubts or misunderstands it or believes that one can �out-romance� an affair, has not had the unfortunate experience of ever dealing with a stubborn, highly self-entitled, emotionally addicted, and totally fogged-out WW.

Hit the nail on the head there, Sidney. It sure is great to have your whole life, heart, and soul basically in the hands of someone that currently has all the foresight, rationality, empathy, and clarity of a massively intoxicated driver behind the wheel doing 85.

The real sick thing is that she isn�t �trying to make a decision that will impact the rest of our lives�. The vast majority of her twisted �thinking� is consumed by FEELINGS for the OM and what she sees as best for HER life. She�s giving very little serious, empathetic, or logical �thought� to her husband, her kids, and the families & friendships that she is dangerously close to ripping apart.

Those long-term consequences and ramifications are being unrealistically ignored, rationalized, or minimized by her at present. It bedazzles all of us�

\
SDC, what we DO understand, as folks who HAVE recovered our marriages, is that feelings follow actions and his goal should be to spend as much time with her as possible while - at the same time - causing as much conflict as possible in the affair.

What he should be striving for is finding a WAY to spend as much as possible with her. He should be SELLING her on the prospect that romantic love is possible *IF* they follow certain steps. While she may not buy that now, he can plant the seed. And even if she won't agree to do this for now, he can look for opportunities to spend as much time as possible with her.

As the affair crumbles, he can attract her back into the marriage. That is how one recovers the marriage with the TYPICAL, GARDEN VARIETY "stubborn, highly self-entitled, emotionally addicted, and totally fogged-out WS....."

So, when he says: "She loved me once....why not again? " That is very possible with this program. Just ask other "stubborn, highly self-entitled, emotionally addicted, and totally fogged-out WW....." on this forum who are in fully recovered marriages today. [MrsW, MrsKahuna, lorousi come to mind]

Thanks all again. I cannot fathom how this is such a roller coaster of emotions.

Today, I was happy spending the morning with my daughter. Then I get to work, get angry and call my wife telling her that when she comes home, I'm leaving. I'll take our daughter to the playground but i really do not want to be around her after. She said "where will you go' and I told her not her worry since this seems to be what she wants.

So, in the evening, I drop daughter back home and go visit with a friend. Wife says ' go ahead and eat dinner - with baby like usual' but I just could not stand to stay around today. Then I go back to work for a bit (not like I did anything but mope around) and I start thinking that the single most important person in this is my daughter. She is the one that keeps me and makes me happy these days and always will. So, I am content right now that whatever happens, my daughter will always be an integral part of my daily routine. Oh yes, and I emailed the OM a nice letter today asking him to 'go away.'

Holy crap..what a day of emotions.

Plans to 'shut my relationship talk' mouth permanently, listen, be safe in the home and #1, spend quality time with my daughter. Wife wants to join - great. If not, no problem - we'll have fun ourselves.

This IS all normal right? I WILL be happy one day again whether or not I believe it right now right????

igrip, please don't do that. I am concerned you may hurt his emotional feelings and ruin his self esteem. That would be mean and icky.

Please send him a heartfelt apology for trying to control him. Hopefully he will forgive you.

Another idea is to get in your car, drive to his house and face him like a man who possesses some balls, that is intent on defending his marriage from this worm. Look this little worm in the EYE like a man and tell him you will be fighting for your marriage. Ask him what his intentions are with your wife. Be sure and leave your pistol in the car so you don't give into the temptation of pistol whipping him. And then tell him this:

Nice Melody..very nice. He lives three hours away. Bad enough my wife wasted our money on gas to go there...I'm not about to

Just now, my wife came out from the other room - I am sitting here watching TV. She asked me how I was and I told her the roller coaster thing and that right now, I was in a peaceful place.

Then I brought up some custody and divorce things she had talked about yesterday (I just researched it tonight for the first time). Seems like she was REALLY uncomfortable talking about this stuff - sole, joint, decisions, me wanting to see our daughter daily, us HAVING to live in the same town for the rest of our lives, no new boyfriends or girlfriends exposed to our daughters life until a 'long term' commitment has been made..all things I told her I would be adamant about for the sake of our daughter (which she has mentioned numerous times). She has mentioned before that she would want a no-court divorce for the sake of our child. Does not want it to get messy. I agree. However, I think tonight MAY have proven that even a kitchen discussion of these details may be tough.

Not sure what MB thinks about that conversation. To me, it makes this much more REAL. Hopefully, it does to her as well. It frankly scares me. I think working out our differences and staying married sounds much easier and more fun Thoughts as to where tonights conversation went in her confused head?